Wise Not Withered

Season 4 - Episode 3 - Interview with Javi Martinez

Welcome to the Wise Not Withered Podcast! This month's guest is Javi Martinez, who shares her incredible story about her gaming history, her experience being a trans-feminine, gender-fluid person, her spiritual and shamanic path, including her current work at the International School of Temple Arts, as faculty and event organizer and coordinator.

Thank you so much, Javi Martinez, for joining us on the Wise Not Withered podcast! What is your age?

Oh shit… Heh, my age is 54.

54, all right. And where did you grow up?

Well, the first few years of my life, I grew up in Guatemala. And then we ended up moving to the United States roughly when I was nine or ten years old.

Okay, and what brought you here?

Just my family moved. My dad was working up here, and we ended up coming up to join him.

Okay. And where do you currently live?

I live in western Massachusetts, in a town called Amherst.

Amherst, okay. How long have you been there?

Since I was about ten years old!

(laughs) Oh! Oh wow, so you moved to Guatemala…

Well, off and on. I’ve moved to other areas nearby, and then ended up coming back here.

Okay, so it’s kinda been in that same area since ten years old. Okay, cool.

Forty-something years, yeah.

Yeah. Great. So I met your partner at a recent retreat. She mentioned that you’re an avid gamer. Can you tell us about your gaming history?

Well, let’s see. I guess it’s something that I’ve always liked. I’ve always liked playing games. Games have always been an important part of my life, just overall. And then yeah, when I was about nine or ten years old, I started playing tabletop games, like Dungeons & Dragons. And that was one of my favorite things, so I started doing that pretty religiously for a while.

Then I also grew up in the time of arcades. There really wasn’t home gaming systems. You know, we all had to like, save our quarters and run out to the video game arcade and play video games there. So my friends and I would do that. We would like, not eat lunch at school, and take our lunch money and go play video games after school.

Wow!

Yeah, so it’s just been something I’ve always enjoyed. Then I got the original Atari, and then you know, kept playing video games at home. You know, as well as other games. And basically, once the Play Station came out, I’ve just been like, a loyal Play Station person.

Yeah. What are some of your… The gems, yeah.

The gems are mostly role-playing games. I just… Not having the time, or even the group of friends—we all had time to play tabletop role-playing. Once I wasn’t able to do that, my desire and my love of role-playing games transferred over to video games. So I’ve played games like Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Skyrim. Those are my favorites. The Assassin’s Creed Odyssey was really good. I really love that one as well. But yeah, mostly role-playing games are the ones I love.

Mhm. Yeah, me too! I tend to gravitate toward those ones. I’m not very good at the shooters or the platforming games.

Yeah, so I don’t do like MMOs or go online with people. Yeah, for me it’s about entering a fantasy world. Tied into that is my love of reading. I grew up reading fantasy books. So it’s all woven together.

Do you still read those kinds of books, or not as much?

Not as much because of time, and other interests. But yeah, the past few months I did go back and re-read a few of my old favorites. So it was really nice to go back and re-read them.

What made you decide to go re-read those books?

Um… I’m not sure. I just basically have been playing video games a lot, and was getting sort of bored with that, and I was like oh yeah, reading! (laughs) I mean I’ve been reading other books, like spiritually-themed books. But yeah, I just felt like wow, I haven’t done like, pleasure reading in a long time. Just sat down with a fun book and just devoured it. So that felt really good.

Yeah, something a little more light.

Yeah, exactly.

That’s pretty cool. So she also mentioned that you’re a Guatemalan trans goddess! I love that title.

She gives me all kinds of titles!

(laughs) Yeah, “She’s an avid gamer, trans goddess”, all these very, very fascinating things. Yeah, I’m so curious—the whole transitioning process, like identity, spirituality, social constructs, culture… Whatever you’re comfortable sharing, I’m very curious!

Well that’s really open-ended! Yeah… I guess it’s a funny thing. My transition is… I don’t know if it’s particularly unique, but I think it’s different than most other people, because it was very much tied into my spirituality and my shamanic path.

Okay.

Where to begin… Yeah. Growing up, I didn’t remember or know that… I’m like, so feminine and a woman inside. I didn’t know I was a woman. I grew up thinking and feeling that I was a boy, and a man. Things like that. I knew I was different. Like I always had a funny sense that I wasn’t like all my other friends, like I felt things that they didn’t, feel things that they didn’t feel, I would think differently… Yeah, I just thought okay, I’m just different. I’m just a weird person.

But then when I started my… Really stepped into my spiritual path, and I started doing my shamanic work, like shamanic journeying, and really stepping forward into my shamanic path, I was called into service. One of my Patron Goddesses that has been with me my whole life stepped forward, and was like, okay, I want you to devote yourself to me, whole-heartedly. Like 100% devotion. And one of the rules or stipulations that she put, is that if I am to do this, I have to devote myself 100% and effectively do everything she asked, no right of refusal—which was, you know, pretty intense, to think of like okay, I want to be in devotion, I want to serve, and I want to do these things. But to have like… Yeah, to give everything over, to really do everything Spirit asked of me was a big step, and I had to really think about it for a while, and really feel into it, if it was something I was really willing to do.

And yeah, so after a couple of months of meditating on it and really feeling into it, I was like okay, I guess this is something I need to do. And she told me that you know, it was my choice. If I do it, it would be really challenging and difficult, but also very rewarding. And if I didn’t do it, that I could go on living a regular, boring life. And the more I thought about it, I was like, I didn’t want to have a boring life, and I do want to be a healer, and do all these things… And if I don’t do this, and I don’t gain the skills, what’s gonna happen in the future if those skills are needed? Like, I have a daughter, like what if my daughter needed some form of healing, and because I chose to just be a regular, boring… Call it a “muggle”, you know, and I didn’t have access to that divine connection to provide what I needed to provide, I would regret it. So I thought well, I guess this is something I need to do.

Yeah, so I did it, I held a ceremony, I did my devotion. And pretty much right after I devoted myself to her, she said, “You’re a woman.” And I was like, “Excuse me? What do you mean, I’m a woman?” And she said, “You’re a woman.” And I thought, “Okay, I don’t know what the fuck that means.” (laughs) And I had to sit and meditate with that, and then she started giving me tasks. Like I had to get rid of all my old clothes. I had to go buy women’s clothes. All these things that were really about feminizing me. So she started giving me all these tasks to have me really drop into more a feminine place. The more tasks she gave me, the more I realized wow, she is guiding me really to this thing of like… She says I’m a woman. So I started feeling into that. Like okay, I promised I’d do everything she asked. She said I’m a woman. Let me feel into that, what does this feel like for me? Really feel into it, am I? Am I really a woman? So I started doing like a deep dive with this feeling, with this idea…

I went to other shaman people, shamanic practitioners, I went to psychics. I would go to different things, and I would ask like, “Okay, can you help me with this? Can you journey and find out, or can you get a reading for me? Am I really a woman?” I did that a few times, I’m like I need to double-check this. Maybe I’m going insane, let me go ask a few other people to see if this is congruent. And the answers were pretty much in alignment that there was something there for me to explore. So I’m like okay, I’m exploring this.

And after… I don’t know what it was, like six, seven months of doing tasks, like wearing make-up and doing different things, I did another journey, and this time she said, “Okay, now you’re gonna go and get estrogen. You’re gonna go get hormones.” And you know, that was a big step for me! I was like okay, I guess we’re reaching a new level. And I still wasn’t fully convinced I was a woman at the time.

And how old were you at that point?

It’s been fifteen years, so… Yeah it’s been about fifteen years.

So like 40, 39?

Yeah. 40, 39, yeah… Sixteen years… Anyways, so I went and spoke to my doctor. I mean, I knew all the things I needed to say to get the estrogen. And yeah, it was a very… It was like a big portal for me in my life and my transition and my sense of self, because the moment that I injected the estrogen for the first time, when the estrogen coursed through my body, it felt… Yeah, it really felt in my system like, I’m home. I’m home. And it really felt so much like home, and so much like… Like, this is what I’ve been looking for my whole life. This feeling is what I’ve been seeking my whole life and I didn’t know it.

You know it’s almost like having that… Like my body always felt off, wrong… I always felt… I don’t know what to call it, like… I never felt comfortable in my own skin, kind of a feeling. And it was a constant thing that I wasn’t aware of until I had the estrogen, and then I was like oh my goodness, this is what I’ve been waiting for. This is it. This is it. This is home for me. I felt at home in my body, maybe for the first time. And yeah, I remember that as soon as I felt this, I looked up and I was like, “You were right!” I had this moment of, “You were right.” So that was how it began. It was not like I had any idea that that’s what I was doing… Yeah, up to that point I had doubts. Even after that point, I had periods of doubts. Even now! (laughs) Even now there’s still moments where I question my gender.

You know, people say that gender is fluid, and it changes with whatever throughout your life… I’m not sure if that’s the case or not, but for me there’s definitely been elements of fluidity, particularly in the first half of my transition. I did go through periods of time where I felt like I was more trans feminine, but gender fluid, and I would flow back and forth.

Hm! How would that show up, like in a day-to-day thing?

It could be day to day, it could be minute to minute. It could be situational. Part of it is that I do carry forty-plus years of living as a man in my system, in my body, in my muscle memory, in my brain. Biologically speaking, you know, testosterone shaped my brain. The testosterone brain and the estrogen brain are very different on many levels. There’s different neural pathways that run through the brains, dictated by hormones. So I have all the masculine—I don’t know if masculine is the right word… All the testosterone neural pathways, and then I got and formed—my brain got reshaped, with all the estrogen neural pathways. So my brain does some weird things sometimes. (laughs)

So yeah, I mean, it’s… Hm. I’m trying to think of a way to explain it that makes sense. At times, like in the past, like the first half of my transition, I would say that I typically shifted within the spectrum of what I would consider my identity based on if I was feeling masculine or feminine. So if I stepped into a real masculine space, it was almost like everything just sorta shifted, and I would step into that place.

You know, like I was before my transition. It was a full shift. You know, body mannerisms, the way I spoke, the way I carried myself, the way I sit, the way I talk. It just becomes very much like that. And then when I was feeling more feminine, I would flow more into like a soft, feminine place, where I could feel my identity as a woman more fully. So I was like going back and forth based on how I felt within the masculine-feminine polarities and dynamics that are within me. I mean, everybody has them.

Right.

Everybody has them, but within me it would cause shifts in how I felt about myself. How I felt about myself in the moment. And that still happens periodically. And yeah… There’s times that I just feel, like I feel my body, and I’m like “Is this right for me?” I don’t know… There’s moments of questioning.

It’s interesting, like sometimes I don’t realize I’ve made a shift until I’m talking to someone about something. And then my language sometimes gives me a clue. For example, as an educator, if I was to be talking about let’s call it male psychology or male health, male sexuality, or growing up that way, or something… And I’d be talking, and I might shift into language of like… Including myself, like “We often feel this way when…” or things like that. And when that comes out, sometimes I’m like “Oh. I’m a ‘we’ with this now. Okay, that’s interesting…”

And there’s other times that I’m not aware of it, that someone will use my pronouns, of like she or her, that don’t feel good in my system. And someone will refer to me in that way and I’ll constrict and be like whoa, that’s not me. And then I’ll be like okay, that’s weird, I didn’t realize… I don’t feel good being a she/her right now. And it makes me feel like, “Am I a he/him?” Where am I on the pronoun spectrum? But it’s not like a conscious thing, like I wake up and go hey, I’m gonna be this. It’s just how I am just going through my day, there’s little indicators that tell me, you’re more this way on the spectrum today, or in this moment. And a lot of times it’s those things… Even though the majority of the time, when I’m going through my day, when people misgender me, and call me “sir” or a he/him, it hurts… You know, it hurts, and I know I’m over here. And so it’s more situations and external reflections that give me an indicator as to where I am in the moment. But I would say the majority of the time, I’m definitely in the trans feminine identity.

A lot of times it’s easier for me to say I’m a trans-woman to people, than to say oh I’m trans-feminine but sometimes I’m fluid, and da-da-da… And like, it just turns into this big, huge, confusing thing, and if 99% of the time she/her pronouns make me happy, I just say hey, great. Just please use she/her pronouns, because 99% of the time they make me happy, and it’s so much easier to say I’m a woman. And I am. I mean, even as far back as February, just a couple months ago, I was going through a questioning period. I was going on shamanic journeys, and getting help from other practitioners, to figure out like… What is my gender? Who am I? I was going through one of those questioning periods. And at the end of the day, the answer I got through all of the guidance I got and journeys I did, was that I am a woman. So I am. Yeah… It’s complicated. It’s simple but complicated. (laughs)

Yeah, I can understand that! Can you talk more about the shamanic journey? What started you, what got you interested? I’m sure that’s a whole thing too!

Well, I’ve always been interested in the metaphysical, the spiritual… When I went through adolescence, I was interested in the Occult. I was always interested in those kinds of things. You know, I read books and practiced basic rituals. And you know, Pagan things, as I was going through adolescence into adulthood, and that’s always been important to me. But yeah, it started with… Okay. I have to give you a little bit of background. I’m a licensed mental health counselor. And I used to work in a juvenile detention center, working with delinquent kids. And I did that for almost twenty-five years. And I was at a conference that was based around the treatment of sex offenders. At this conference, there was a clinician that was also a shamanic healer, who worked in the treatment of sex offenders using Native American healing ceremonies as part of his practice.

And so he was giving a presentation, and I was like “Yeah, that’s my shit right there. I need to be in this. I need to know about this.” And so I sat in this class, and he spoke about you know, living in Africa, and learning to be a shaman in Africa, a Sangoma, and he gave all these presentations and things that were amazing, and he even talked about shamanic healing for things like anxiety. And he led a healing circle for a shamanic healing ceremony, to help somebody who was there who had anxiety. So I participated and witnessed this ceremony, and the whole time that he was speaking, the whole time this class was happening, and during the ceremony, I felt like lightning was going through my body. There was so much energy coursing through my body throughout this whole class, that I was just like “Damn, I need to look into this. I need to do this. This is amazing!” I could feel it. It’s so… In me! I had to do it.

So I took some of the recommended books that he had listed on his thing. I think I might have ordered them from Amazon, I don’t remember. But yeah, I just took the books, started reading. I started going to drumming and journeying circles near my house, that other shamanic practitioners were doing. And so I just started journeying and connecting to my spirit guides. Building relationships with my spirit guides. And then yeah, the more I did it, the more it felt alive in me. And that’s when my teacher, my spirit guide, my Goddess, who I’d been building a relationship with shamanically—I already had a relationship with her before, when I was in my Pagan… For lack of a better term, growing up Pagan. Yeah, she stepped forward, and was like, I want you to devote yourself. So I devoted myself… And yeah, it’s just gone from there.

Yeah. And so I’m curious what the whole devotion thing… What all does that entail? And I guess, what purpose does it serve for you, too?

Well, what it entails is being in service. So it’s not just being in service to her, but it basically means being in service to the Earth, being in service to people, being in service to our collective. In essence, I’m a priestess. And as a priestess, I’m here to serve. And that may look different ways at different times to different people. You know, I may be doing ceremonies in nature for Mother Earth, that have to do with healing, water, or connecting to trees. Cleaning up trash, I do that. (Laughs) Or, it could be going on journeys for people that need help, need questions answered, need healing. It could mean doing Reiki or energy healing on someone that needs healing. It could be… Yeah, numerous things.

Part of my path, part of being in service is also being a teacher, being a presenter, being an event coordinator. There’s a lot of areas where I’m in service. What does it mean for me? It means a lot of things! Like for one thing, it meant me finding who I really am. And ultimately, I will say that my transition was hard. I was terrified. I was terrified to transition. And especially in this world where there’s so much hate toward trans and queer people… I mean right now you know the Republican right wing agenda is all anti-trans. Everything is anti-trans. There’s politicians calling for us to be eradicated. There’s all kinds of crazy stuff.

So yeah, I was terrified to do so, not just for the world, but within myself. I had internal fear about doing the transition as well.

Right.

You know, coming out, and just everything. And so I really feel like if I had not promised to do everything she asked, I probably wouldn’t have done it. And I think that Spirit, the Divine, knew that at this point in my life and who I was and where I was in life and everything, that I needed to be fully devoted with no right of refusal, for me to do the things I needed to do. And to really step into myself, into my power, into being authentic. Because I think if I didn’t have that, I would have been too afraid.

Yeah.

Yeah. So I think that that’s one of the things that served me, as hard as it was! Yeah, I mean I’m living… (laughs) I live a crazy life! Most people would consider it crazy. You know, I don’t think I would have had the courage to step into it and do all of the things that I do if I didn’t have this… Yeah, this place of being in service. And feeling like I have this spiritual safety net—that I can jump into all these things, knowing that I’m supported, that I’m doing the right thing, if that makes sense. If I have Spirit telling me to do something, and it’s spirits that are my guides and teachers that I have a close relationship to, I feel safe that this is the right thing for me.

So it’s nice to have guidance. So many people in this world wander around, like looking for a purpose, looking for, “What the hell am I doing with myself? Why am I here? What’s my purpose?” Mid-life crises. All these things. And for me, it’s been handed to me in a sense. Like, here you go, this is what you’re doing, like it or not. And half the time, I haven’t liked it cause it’s been really hard, and painful. Having to also face and heal all my trauma, you know… I needed to heal all my trauma, so that I can better serve and heal other people’s trauma—has not been easy. But it’s been rewarding. It’s like my Goddess said, I mean it hasn’t been easy, it’s been challenging, but it has been very rewarding. And continues to be very rewarding.

Yeah, I can resonate with a lot of that. You mentioned drumming, and journeys? What exactly is a shamanic journey? I have heard that term before—can you describe it a bit more?

Yeah… Let me see if I can summarize this quickly. Okay. So when I speak in terms of Michael Harner, and his school and foundation of shamanic studies… Michael Harner was an anthropologist that traveled around the world and lived with many indigenous cultures, and eventually became a shaman. He was welcomed by the village shamans into their mysteries. The more he traveled around the world, the more he realized that universally, all the shamanic cultures around the world do the same things. They may have different flavors of how they do it. They may have different techniques that vary in appearance or flavor but ultimately, all the shamanic practices are the same, or similar. And so he called it Core Shamanism. So this foundation of shamanic studies teaches what he calls Core Shamanism. And so in Core Shamanism, the idea is that people go into ecstatic states—altered states of consciousness, where we communicate with spirits, with entities, with trees, with the Earth, with the seasons, with elements… And there’s different ways of doing it. Everything from dancing, to fasting, to vision quests… You know, going out in nature for a few days with no food… It could be going into a dark cave for two days, in darkness… There’s all these ways that universally, people have done these things. Plant medicines. Every culture around the world uses some form of mushroom or plant medicine, to… Or you know, frogs, or whatever. There’s different nature medicines that help open the mind, and expand consciousness, to communicate with Spirit—that’s spiritual growth.

But ultimately, to narrow it down, what he found is that people can do this naturally without medicines, without doing anything else—through drumming. Oh yeah, I should mention breath work—breath work is a big way to also enter these states of consciousness. But yeah, so drumming, where you just take a drum, and beat it at a particular speed or frequency, has a particular vibration that is encoded in our DNA. Every human being across the globe, it has been proven in studies, that if you just sit and close your eyes, and listen to a drum, just beating, and you just relax, it will put your mind into a trance state. I forget what it’s called, like the theta state, where we dream. I forget what it is, if it’s beta or theta state, I can’t remember.

Yeah, I’m not sure.

So basically, people that are awake, that are just sitting and listening to drumming, if they just allow themselves to relax, they will automatically go into this kind of mental wave length state where you can receive visions, or dreams. And every person can do it—it’s part of our brain. Our brains are wired to do this, naturally. So effectively, it’s in our DNA that we are all shamans, and that we can all do shamanic journeys, just from using a drum. Just like we can all do it through breath work. Like if we do the Wim Hof method, or the shamanic breathwork. There’s different types of breathwork—holotropic breathwork. All those kinds of things. It’s naturally in our systems, in our brains, that when we do these things, this happens.

So everybody can do this naturally. And I think we all did it naturally, two thousand-plus years ago, before the advent of the Judeo-Christian religions, that told us that we needed to go to a church, to talk to a priest, and the priest could talk to God for us, and that we couldn’t do it ourselves. We’ve been disempowered, and disconnected from Source, and disconnected from Spirit. But we all have it. So yeah, shamanic journeys can come in many forms. Like ayahuasca or mushrooms, or it can come through holotropic breathwork. But I started with drumming, because that’s the most basic, most foundational one, where you really don’t have to do anything but sit, and listen to the drum.

And then there’s guidance, where for shamanic journeys, we do use… People do use their imagination. Like visualization. Like if you go to some psychic circles, and people take you through a guided meditation, where someone is guiding you, down a hall and down some stairs, and through a door, and into a room, and what do you see in the room. And so a guided meditation is very similar, where you have someone guiding you through the experience, but when you learn to do a shamanic journey, you’re doing it for yourself. So you imagine yourself going into a cave, and following the cavern down deeper and deeper and deeper, to go into what’s called lower world.

In shamanic cosmology, there’s upper world and lower world. And middle world—the middle world is where we live in. And the upper world is where, traditionally, the spirits that are human-shaped are found, like ancestors, passed loved ones. Some people might say deities. Basically the human-shaped, humanoid-type teachers and guides are usually found in the upper world. And when you go into the lower world, that’s where you connect with plant and animal spirits, like your animal spirit guides, like your Power Animal.

Okay.

So you visualize yourself going down into this, or you visualize yourself climbing a ladder or climbing a tree. Like the World Tree imagery. People talk about the World Tree—that was usually what the shamans used to travels the worlds. So yeah, you follow the path to where you’re trying to go. You imagine it, you visualize it, and you visualize yourself walking in those directions, and eventually you cross a threshold, be it a doorway, an archway, the pearly gates into heaven. I like to use the analogy of Jack and the bean stalk. Like Jack climbed a beanstalk, all the way up into the clouds, and then Jack climbed through a cloud, and when he came out on the other side of the cloud, he was in a different world. He could stand on the cloud, and there was like castles and geese that laid golden eggs, and all these things.

So there’s usually a threshold. And when you cross that threshold and enter the spirit world, is usually when your imagination sort of isn’t… It’s no longer like… Something will happen, like Spirit will interact with you in some way… That you’ll sit there and go, “Okay, I’m in the spirit world now, because there’s no way I would have dreamed this up.” You know, your imagination only takes you so far. Our imagination only has so much in terms of creativity, in these moments, that when you step into the spirit world, something will happen with the environment, with you know, an animal or something that’s gonna be so weird, that you go, “Okay, I’m here. I’m with spirit now, because there’s no way my imagination would have done this.”

So it’s hard to explain, but that’s how it feels. It’s like, yeah, I didn’t imagine that. So I know that something’s happening. That’s usually the indicators for when you’re in the spirit world. So Spirit lets you know, “Okay, you’re here, let me show you this weird thing so you know you’re here.” It’s almost like lucid dreaming, where something weird happens and you’re like “Oh, I think I’m dreaming!” Something different, like an indicator. So basically, in a nut shell, that’s shamanic journeying! (laughs)

Yeah, interesting! Do you remember your first one?

That’s a really good question… I don’t know if I remember my first one. Yeah… I was doing it so much, just trying to map out my worlds, and where all my guides were. That time, just meeting my spirit guides, I don’t remember what my first one was. I know it was profound, because I went back!

Again and again!

I don’t remember what it was that made it special or profound.

Okay. So you did mention the Mystery School. Is it Neo-Tantra? Is that how you say it?

I mentioned Michael Harner’s foundation of shamanic studies. They offer training, like two or three year apprenticeship for shamanic studies. I just want to throw a plug out there: it is a foundation that, when people do go and pay for their programs, the money does go to indigenous cultures, and to indigenous shamans, to help keep all these shamanic practices alive, different cultures in the world. I just want to say that because it is important, something that we need to do. But yeah, I do belong to a mystery school!

Yeah, what is that? What does that mean?

I belong to a mystery school that’s called the International School of Temple Arts. I am a faculty for the International School of Temple Arts, or ISTA for short. And we are a… Hm. It’s like defining who we are is always a changing thing. Yeah, we operate within the realm of sacred sexuality, and do utilize elements of tantra, taoist teachings, shamanism, Buddhism, and so many other spiritual practices into one melting pot of things.

And really, it is about uncovering you know, the mystery of what it means to be here, in this life. The mystery of life. The mystery of love. The mystery of sexuality. The mystery of the divine, the mystery of Source. Where everybody came from. You know, what is God? Like, the Native American tribes referred to God, or, you know, as the Great Mystery. It’s a mystery. The Divine is a mystery.

So we’re a Mystery School that delves into these deep things. Like delving into Shadow—shadow work. Delving into darkness and light, and really all that it means to be human, and spiritual, and sexual. So while people wanted to classify us as tantra, because we fell into the Neo-tantric umbrella where people think of sacred sexuality in that way. While we adhere to some tantric practices like sound, breath, and movement, and many of our teachers are tantra teachers as well, that’s not effectively who we are.

So we started coining the term Sexual Shamanism. So what we do is sexual shamanism, which is different than tantra, because it’s a different flavor. Like tantra comes from India, and has this rich tradition, which… There is a lot of cultural appropriation, and spiritual appropriation that has happened, within Neo-tantra communities, and even within ISTA where we’ve taken things from the tantra traditions of India, and we’ve utilized them and changed them, and you know, adapted them to what we do. But yeah, so we basically call it sexual shamanism. And again, it’s difficult to explain in a short period of time because so much of it is a mystery, because it’s so different for everybody that comes to our trainings.

Do you do like, one-on-one, or are there group classes, or is it mostly individual?

Yeah, we do group offers. For the most part, we do trainings. We do week-long intensives. The first… We’ll call it the starting point, the level one, is called the Spiritual Sexual Shamanic Experience. And so I facilitate those trainings. And this experience is… Even though we have a core curriculum, everybody that goes through it experiences something different, because everybody is on their own journey.

And you know, we have a feeling, or a sense, or a belief that everybody that comes to our trainings gets exactly what they need. So it has that shamanic feel, that for some people, they get some things like where… They open up sexually in ways that they didn’t know they could. Other people receive healing from trauma. Other people just go deeper into their own spiritual practice. Other people basically develop a stronger sense of self and identity. And yeah, the primary core of the level one has to do with sovereignty, personal sovereignty and self-empowerment. So that looks different to everybody that comes.

So there’s this level one, which is about self-empowerment, then there’s other trainings. One that’s being renamed into Soul Initiation. We used to call it the level two, and it used to be called the Spiritual Sexual Shamanic Initiation, Level Two. So the first is the experience, the second is the initiation. Now we’re taking the “level two” part of it out, and just calling it a Soul Initiation, I believe—the name is still being worked out. Because, too many people felt like… You know, in our Western culture, we have you know, first grade, second grade, third grade. So people thought “I’m gonna do level one, then I’m gonna do level two.” like a progression. And it’s not like that. It’s two separate things that aren’t linear. It’s about the self, or it’s about killing the ego. And really going into deeper initiations: death initiations, sexual rebirth initiations… So it’s a totally different thing.

And then there are other trainings that are… There’s another one that has to do with really… The core teaching of it is disillusionment, and being disillusioned with the mystery school, with ISTA, with everything. Being disillusioned with things in a way that if everything is falling apart around you, can you still hold your center? Can you still hold your ground? Can you still stay grounded with who you are, in your mission in life, in your purpose, and continuing to do what you’re here to do, even as everything else is falling apart around you?

Even as the world is collapsing in on you, know you can do this. “I’m gonna go change the world!” There’s gonna be that push-back, like “No, this is radically different, this is bad, you can’t do this” because of the old belief systems. How can you sit there in the fire and still hold your center and continue plodding forth? So that training is that piece.

And then we have the practitioner training, which is really becoming a healer, a sexual healer, within the frameworks and teachings of what we do, within ISTA, that framework and philosophy of healing.

Yeah. How was the transition from, you said you were a mental health counselor, then you started going the shaman route… Like, was it kinda gradual, or did you make an abrupt switch? What did that look like?

Well it was a gradual thing. I continued to work, I continued to work at my job while I was an apprentice at ISTA, working toward becoming an ISTA faculty as I learned and healed and worked in the field, in all these trainings. And then it just got to a point where… I reached a point of no return, where my soul just felt like I couldn’t be in my job anymore. I couldn’t continue to do that work. I needed to leave that job so that I could follow a path that’s more soul-aligned.

Right.

I think my job was definitely soul-aligned for that period of my life, you know, healing and helping all these kids in needs, where I was saving lives. I did save a lot of lives. I have a lot of love for the kids I worked with, and that population. I feel like at some point I’m gonna go back and do more work with that population somehow. I just don’t know how or when. But yeah, when I was at my office, even though I was doing good work, I felt stifled and trapped, and I just knew my soul was like, no you need to do something else, something bigger, something grander, something beyond this.

And so that’s what I’m doing now. I’m out creating events, I’m a training organizer. I organize trainings and events for other teachers and other people. I was organizing for ISTA, so I would help bring ISTA trainings to different places as an organizer. And I’m an ISTA faculty, and I’m teaching the ISTA Level One. So above and beyond that, I’m feeling a call to be a shamanic counselor. I don’t know what else to call it. Open myself up to seeing people individually, one-on-one, which would be a variation of coaching, and counseling, therapy, and shamanic work, as well as healing work if needed. Be it Reiki, or even body work, like I did complete the ISTA practitioner training and I have skills in different healing modalities. So it’s whatever is needed. That’s what I’m doing now.

Okay, nice. Wow… I feel like I need to just take all of that in for a second. Thank you for sharing all of that. Wow. I feel like the last questions I wrote seem kinda silly, like “Okay, what are some of your hobbies?” (laughs) But yeah I guess, kinda related to hobbies… It does seem like the work you do is very deep. I would guess that it might be very draining, too. Like, how do you… You did mention light reading. How do you balance that? How do you not take that home with you, you know?

Well, I mean, I would say that part of it is that I use tools to help release things… Release energies, stuck energies within me. Tools that I teach at ISTA for example, as well as other tools that my beloved has been teaching me as well. So we work together in different ways to help release things. There’s times I have to come home and just have decompression periods where I need to just sit and relax…

That’s basically it. I do need some down time. But yeah, I don’t know. It’s not like really… I don’t know, I think I do push myself a little bit more than I should, but a lot of times it’s something that I love doing, so then I’m like, “Yeah, let’s do it!”

Yeah! All right, let’s see… What are some things that you’re looking forward to in the near future?

The near future?

Yeah!

Wow… There’s a few things that I’m really excited about. I mean obviously, one is I’m gonna be… I’m working on an oracle deck. Yeah, and I have a friend of mine that’s doing the artwork for it.

Okay!

I’m like, in my second edit of the description of all the cards and everything. So I feel like pretty soon I’m gonna see about getting it published, or do self-publishing. I don’t know how it’s gonna go yet, but that’s something I’m excited about!

In a little bit over a week, on the 24th [of April], I fly out to California. I’m gonna be teaching ISTA out in Northern California.

Where specifically?

I don’t know the name of the venue, but it’s about an hour and a half from San Francisco.

North or south?

North.

Okay. I actually grew up an hour south of San Francisco.

Yeah, so I’m gonna be out there teaching ISTA.

Cool!

And then… Something else that I’m really excited about, in June, I have a training up here in upstate New York called the Shamanic Kink Immersion that I’m organizing, and assisting, and being a part of. So that’s up here in upstate New York. So I’m excited to organize and help create this event. And then, in July, at the same place in upstate New York, I’m gonna be teaching another ISTA training.

Okay!

So yeah! If your viewers want to come meet me in person, they can come to upstate New York, and yeah, get a taste! (laughs)

Yeah, that’s great! That does sound pretty exciting! Cool, well those are all the questions I have! That was so much. So much really interesting stuff. Is there anything else you wanted to talk about that I didn’t ask about?

Talk about… Um… I’m not sure. You know, to come around full circle to this originally being an interview about gamers and people my age that play video games…

Well it’s not just that. I wanted to just interview older, interesting women doing interesting things. Yeah.

So definitely yeah, I’m excited for the new Diablo game that’s coming out soon. I’m excited for the Baldur’s Gate III game that’s coming out in August. So the makers of Dragon Age, many years ago, created Baldur’s Gate I and II for PC, like twenty years ago. And now, there’s a new Baldur’s Gate III coming out. And what I really love about it, besides the fact that it has beautiful graphics, great storytelling… I mean so much of it is impressive… The artistry of it is incredible, and the storytelling… It’s that the makers, Larian Studios, are actually doing everything in their power to make the game as close to Dungeons and Dragons 5E core rules. And to make the game feel like it’s a tabletop role-playing game, even though you’re playing a video game.

Huh!

So their goal is to make it feel like you’re immersed in a tabletop game, not just playing a video game. So it’s really incredible. Really, the storytelling… The way it’s done, like if you’re playing a tabletop role-playing game, when you do checks and abilities, it actually shows a little box where a twenty-sided die rolls, or you know, six-sided dice rolls, to really see if you’re successful in your actions.

And then, you can play multi-player with friends, too, so you can go on campaigns with three or four of your friends. Right now it’s only in early-access, but the new game is coming out, and I’m super excited for that!

Yeah, cool! Sounds good!

So that’s the other things I’m excited about! Upcoming video games.

Yeah, nice! Cool. Well yeah, thank you so much! This was a really great interview. Thanks for sharing so much of your story.

Thank you! Yeah, until I put up my own website, which I’m working on at this moment, people can find my profile on the ISTA website, which is ista.life. You can find all the trainings, and all the faculty, and I have a profile there. I have my own website for the trainings I’m organizing that also has some information about me, which neistatrainings.com. So that’s the simplest way to find me. Find me on Facebook, you know, find me on Instagram.

Yeah, what’s your Instagram username?

I think it’s my full name. I’m on my phone right now… It’s yeah, @javi_martinez_stahl.

Season 4 - Episode 2 - Interview with Claire Benson

Thanks for tuning in to another interview in Season 4 of the Wise Not Withered Podcast! Today's guest is Claire Benson. We met at a retreat about a month and a half ago, with a program called BWA (Body Wisdom Academy) that we refer to in our conversation. She talks about what she's learned from relationships, overcoming fear, and we talk quite a lot about trauma. The exact content of our conversation hopefully isn't too triggering to listen to, but she does talk about nervous system collapse, so just be aware of that.

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All right. Okay, thank you so much for agreeing to do this interview. So let’s get right into it. Claire Benson! How old are you? What is your age?

I am 58!

58, awesome! Let’s see. What roles do you carry in your current life?

I’m a partner, mother of two daughters, daughter, friend. And professionally I’m an accountant for a non-profit group that provides communication services to people with aphasia. These people have loss of language, not intelligence, from a brain injury like a stroke. I really like it. I’m not so much into the accounting anymore, but I work with a really inspiring team of young women therapists that lets me marry my skills to support a community program that’s really important to me.

Yeah, that’s so interesting. How did you get into that?

I’ve been involved with them for years. One of my good friends is the president on the board. And I was on the board for many years, trying to support the accounting function, and in the end said “Why don’t you just let me do it for a couple of years?” So I came off the board and got more organized. And I still do it cause it works, and I enjoy being with them.

Let’s see… What can you tell me about the romantic relationships in your life and what did you learn from each one?

That’s a big one… I met my first husband when I was working in Bermuda. We were both newly qualified chartered accountants. He’s Canadian, and I’m from the U.K. which may or may not be obvious. We married, and moved to Canada, from Bermuda. I was a quiet, and shy young person, and a bit of a people-pleaser. I was always worried about what people would think.

We were married for 26 years, but ultimately I realized he was a very self-contained person, and didn’t have anything of himself to share with me. And I am more of a highly sensitive individual, and he just didn’t have the capacity to give me the affection that I needed. So I was very lonely. I decided I’d honor my heart and leave. I realized that being loved isn’t enough if you aren’t shown that love.

Yeah.

And I’m now in a relationship with a really very affectionate man. And he makes me feel loved and seen. The dynamic is very different. I didn’t really know that was possible. We both work really hard on communication, and it’s not always easy, bu it’s worth it!

When you and I met at the retreat, there were a few other young women there, too. And I was really, really pleased to see you all doing the work earlier in life than I did. To me that’s a real gift.

In terms of what I learned, if I’m looking back, the advice I’d give to young adults, and I do to my own kids, is to seek out that inner learning early: therapy, retreats, whatever you can. Begin that self-reflection early. It’s so important to understand who you are, especially before you consider committing to one person for the rest of your life. You have to learn your communication styles, you have to learn to be discerning and put yourself first. You have to stand on your own mountain and see who wants to join you there.

Yeah… What started you on that path, that journey of self-discovery?

I think I’ve always been a seeker. Things have happened in my life that have made me stronger and more able to face that and look at that.

Was it more of like a gradual process, or do you remember like a turning point, a single event that kick-started it?

Becoming a mother made me more of a lioness, definitely. And one of my children was very sick. Things that happen in the outside world that you have to deal with… They make you realize that you only get one chance at this. And I think I was just cruising, and doing the best I could. But you know, you learn as you age.

Yeah, sometimes it does take those really dark, down moments to really shake you, right.

It really, really does. Yeah.

Yeah… Thank you for sharing that. I guess a little lighter then, what do you spend most of your time doing these days? What are some of your hobbies and interests, and activities outside of work?

My schedule is kinda up to me, which is a really nice thing to have. And I kinda work when it makes sense, and organize my days to try and make sure I get to do things for me. I try and meditate and walk, stretch my body and do some yoga most days. I find that that self-care takes longer and longer, and becomes more important every day. But it is a win—I have to pay myself first. That’s a really difficult lesson to learn; when you’ve got young kids, it’s really hard for mums to hear, that “You gotta look after yourself.” The reality of that is a little harder.

I’m a big hiker! I like to integrate hiking into travel whenever I can. The walking and being in nature is grounding for me. I feel really untethered if I don’t get to do that. A few years ago, I hiked the Inca trail in Peru.

Oh, wow!!

And that was kinda like the longest walking meditation… Being off-grid, and just such a moving experience. All you had to do was put one foot in front of the other.

Mmm!! How long is that trail?

It took about five days.

Wow! Oh my gosh! How many miles a day?

Well, I don’t remember the miles, but the longest days we were probably walking for about eight hours. That sounds like a lot. But we had sherpas and guides that took care of putting the tents up, so all you had to think about was “Just gotta put one foot in front of the other.” Which is a really freeing experience!

Right, so you did it with a big group?

Yeah, a group of about eight of us. We all knew each other. We were with an organized group. So we had a leader, and then we had all the people carrying the heavy stuff, and the food. We just had our day pack with us, and could just… Go.

Mhm! What made you decide to do that? And when did you do that again?

I did that after my marriage ended. My partner, still now, asked me in our early days, would I do it? I had decided unless something was really off-the-charts scary for me, I was just gonna say “Yes.” And I didn’t know whether I could do it. Yes, I’d been a big hiker, but I had never been in that elevation. And I just said yes, and we did it, and it was amazing.

Wow. Are there any other… I guess maybe “crazy” isn’t the right word for it. Any other, I guess unusual, hiking feats that you’ve done? Or traveling? I guess you put them together, you said, you like to hike when you go traveling?

Yeah, I try to put them together. We did do a trip to Africa, just before Covid, and we were on safari for about ten days.

Where specifically in Africa?

So we landed in Nairobi, Kenya. And we went through Kenya and Tanzania.

Oh wow, okay.

And you know, I don’t know if you’ve ever been, but Africa has a very different energy to it. And you totally feel it. And you see poverty and a totally different way of life. So that was really… That was good to see.

Yeah… How do you feel it changed you, if you can even put it into words?

Well I think one thing it does for sure, apart from seeing the beauty, and feeling the different air… I always love elephants. And seeing a herd of elephants cross in front of you like twenty feet away, was just, for me, a very spiritual experience. But you also come away really knowing the difference between first world and third world problems. Not that I suffered, but you certainly see… You know, when you’ve got people collecting plastic bottles from you so that they can use them to recycle them to get any pennies they can… So desperate to make a living, just to feed their family, you really do realize that we have a lot of first world problems, that we shouldn’t worry about.

Right. Definitely gives you some perspective!

Yeah.

Yeah, so I guess in the same line of perspective: what’s something you learned about yourself just in the past year?

Well, this’ll give you kind of a bit more… Core… Sort of… What I’ve been through. I grew up in a house where I felt quite different from my family. I think a lot of people start to realize that now. You know, you hear people say they think they were adopted. And I just craved being seen and heard, and I can see now that I was seeking connection, and was sensitive to what was going on in people’s inner world. And if I didn’t get any sort of connection, I’d pull back, and turn inwards.

I’d do things like buy my family small gifts, and put them under their pillows. I really wasn’t doing it for attention; I was doing it for connection. And, like many families, my parents were focused on providing for us, and totally gave us a good standard of living, and kept us active and safe. But there was also a lot of fear modeled, which made me very uncertain as I ventured out into the world.

I’m quite determined, luckily. I realized last year that I wanted to look at my inner turmoil. So I signed up for an intense training program that taught me about trauma, and how it shows up in the body, and how to reprogram the wiring. This has really been a game-changer for me in how I live my life, and pushed me to listen to my inner wisdom.

I’d always thought something was wrong with me, because I was so disregulated around other people, and I didn't know what it was. And now I know how common it is. So I know how to practice staying in my body, and sometimes I can actually feel a little bit more regulated.

Yeah, that’s great! Is that Body Wisdom Academy, or something else?

Yes, that was BWA.

Okay, and just out of curiosity, how did you find Leslie and all of that? The whole world of BWA!

It’s kind of interesting. She came across my Facebook page, so obviously the AI was doing something. And I had been looking at… I was at a point in the relationship where we were in a bit of a rocky place. And I wanted to do some… I realized there was more damage from my marriage than I hadn’t dealt with, more from my childhood that I hadn’t dealt with, even though I thought I was okay. So I was looking at just wanting to learn something in the healing world. And I was looking for people to learn reiki from! I hadn’t even done reiki. And I think that triggered her coming across my Facebook page. And it was at the right time for me! I looked at it, and I spoke to Leslie, and I just took a leap of faith!

Yeah. That is so interesting. I feel like I had a similar experience, where… Just on my Instagram page, I added “musical healer” in my description, and I swear my feed changed a little bit just from that. And what the algorithm will throw at you, depending on what you’re searching for. I feel like it’s this weird balance of like… It’s kinda creepy, but then it also sometimes does point you in the right direction, you know?

That’s right! Yes, yes. So I think I did her free course, to start off with. Which sort of pulls you in a little bit and shows you what she’s actually doing. Because it’s got to be such a heart-aligned… It’s such a hard thing to market and explain to people in a way they’ll understand, until they’ve done it.

Right. Definitely!

Did you do the free course first? Or did you jump right in?

I did a couple of… I think I did the 7-day audio challenge, and I stayed subscribed to her. So it’s like I did feel like a little pull.

Yeah, it’s interesting how things happen to us, and we just kinda… Go a bit more in, a bit more in, until we can commit.

Yeah! I do feel like things show up when we’re ready for them, you know?

Yes, absolutely. I’m really proud of you and the other young women for doing it, because it’s life-changing!

Yeah, it really is. Thank you, I appreciate that. Yeah, I guess this is very related, so what’s one of the biggest challenges you’ve overcome?

When my youngest daughter—I have two daughters. When she was twelve, she began to have health issues. And it started with a central nervous system collapse after she’d had the third of three HPV vaccinations. And she was with the first cohort in her school, the first year that they gave these vaccines, at twelve years old, and it was before we knew much about them. And I use the term “nervous system collapse”, I’m not sure if it’s a medical term, but it makes sense to me, because she was in constant fight-or-flight, she was in high anxiety, off-the-charts pain, catastrophic thinking, physical symptoms were amassing, and the exhaustion.

So it kinda circles back to what we were just talking about, with how the body… The body works, and connects with the mind. And it was really complicated. And I was really out of my depth. And it didn’t fit into the mainstream medical silos. She had two surgeries. The first one left her with a deadly infection. And the second one kinda cleaned up the damage from the first.

And, at that time, nobody spoke about trauma, and the impact on the body and the nervous system and how it creates pain. Pain can frequently show up in the pelvis, especially in females.

After about three years, a physiotherapist started me on that path of learning about trauma and its impact. And I kinda became the queen of research at night, when I was trying to look after her in the day. I made so many mistakes… I took advice from the medical community, which I now know was the opposite of what she needed. I made her go to school, and that caused more trauma. She was rarely in school. It really impacted my oldest daughter as well. She was able to be a supportive sister, and care for herself as much as possible… But we were both traumatized from what we witnessed.

And it was just a huge period of responsibility for me, without much of a break. But with a lot of courage, and therapy, and energy healing, she’s now done a lot of the kind of therapy I’ve done. And she really started it before me. And today she’s a lot better, but she’s fighting to deal with the physical symptoms that remain—tracking her trauma on the nervous system.

The reason I wanted to bring it up is because if this happened today, there would be so many more resources available, and guidance from parents. And if somebody had just said to me at the very beginning, “trauma”, I would have known where to look. It was a very difficult journey, and I really hope that today any young Mums would be sent on the right pathway, because we know so much more about how, you know, the body really does keep the score. You’re running around saying, “Okay, I’m having these physical symptoms because of this physiological thing?” Or is it because of what we’re learning about the nervous system and trauma? And it’s just such a long journey.

My oldest daughter, now, she’s quite an amazing individual. She’s an emergency room nurse. And I think because of what she saw with her sister, she’s got a bigger picture with her patients, which I think is quite a gift that she brings. But it was a lot of responsibility caring for a child that can’t process what’s happening to her. And that really has been my biggest challenge. It’s been my biggest failure, and it’s been my biggest success.

Today, it’s not my journey—it’s her journey. And my job is to try not to cross too many boundaries… You know, inevitably I mess that up, too!

Yeah. Oh, I love that you said it’s one of your biggest failures but then also biggest successes, too.

Yeah. Yeah.

They can just be so interrelated. How you look at it.

Yeah. Cause I wouldn’t be as close with them both, now, I don’t think, if we hadn’t gone through all of that together. But of course you’d give your right arm to take pain away from somebody. And for some reason, this is her journey.

Right.

I don’t think I’ll ever understand it, but that’s what it is.

Yeah. Did you also read the book “The Body Keeps The Score”? I’m literally reading it right now!

Yes. The first book I read was “Waking The Tiger”—I think that was Peter Levine. So that was what really started to show me how trauma in childhood can connect with pain. And then I moved on to “The Body Keeps The Score”. That one was a little technical for me, but I did get through it. I just read as much as I could.

Yeah. So in light of the successes… Again I just love that you called it a failure but then also a success.

Thank you.

What are some of your other successes that you’ve had in life?

Well I think the biggest one for me, because of my upbringing, has been overcoming fear. And I kinda have to constantly remind myself that it’s okay to be uncomfortable. And just going back to the trauma thing… You know, even with that awareness, parents can still pass fear or anything else, traumatic-wise, along their children, because we now know that trauma can be passed down through the DNA.

Right, oh my gosh.

And, you know, DNA is a little bit flexible, too, so it’s not a… foregone conclusion, which is nice. But, you know, in terms of things I had the courage to do… I moved to Bermuda even though I was terrified, and I moved to Canada. I had the courage to go against my teachers, who tried to dumb me down in school and told me I couldn’t do what I needed to do to become a chartered accountant. And I actually ended up being one of the youngest people to get it.

Yeah, going back to overcoming fear: what exactly does that look like? How does that show up in your day-to-day life? Like, how have you overcome it in different circumstances?

Well it’s an awareness that the way I was programmed as a child was to go to fear and worry about doing something. So just that awareness of it, so that you question yourself when something you might want to do comes up. One year, I was hiking in Alberta. And I am terrified of heights, I do feel like I want to jump off the edge of a cliff… That’s just what it is. But I still went up these switchbacks, up the mountain, and did it! And it’s just… A mental switch to catch yourself from going to fear and worry, and trying to go to “Oh, maybe I can do that!”

Yeah!

And it’s really hard. Because I do come up against things that I have on the go, that seem to get to a certain point, and I don’t let it get out into the world, where it would be seen. So I definitely have that fear of being seen. That’s why the BWA has been good, to keep making me realize, see that, and move towards being seen more.

Right, yeah. Like right now! (Laughs)

Like right now! Yes, exactly! My first reaction when you asked me to do this was “Hell no!” (Laughs) And then a few people said to me, “Well… Isn’t this why you’re doing this work?” (Laughs) Got me!!

I love it. So great. All right, so what’s something you’re looking forward to right now?

I have some nice things coming up! I have a trip to Norway next month, going to see the fjords. In the middle of planning that now… At the same time, my oldest daughter is doing a hiking trip in Nepal, so I’m looking forward to hearing about that. She’s got… Actually, both my kids have the hiking bug. But my oldest has more opportunity, and health, to be able to just go for it.

I’m at my partner’s cottage right now, being in nature… My big thing is I want to write a novel. I have lots of ideas from my family. I’m not sure yet if it’s my story to tell. I’m kinda figuring that out. I’ve also written a children’s book. Goes back to trauma again, it teaches young children strategies to self-soothe with when they’re triggered.

Oh wait, you’ve written it and published it? Or you’ve just written it?

No, I’ve just written it… It’s sitting on my computer waiting to be illustrated and published, if I can.

Oh, that sounds amazing!! Yes! Yes, you can!!

Yeah! So it’s based on my youngest daughter’s golden retriever, who is really in a lot of ways a therapy dog for her, brought her a long way. It’s just where the dog teaches the child, does something with the child like meditate, or breathe, or shake. You know how a dog will shake off trauma, just stand there and shake?

Yes! Oh, I love that!

So it’s just repeating things like that, and giving the child confidence to do it on their own, for themselves.

Oh! That sounds so great! Oh my goodness! I really hope you can get that out into the world. That sounds amazing!

Yeah, I really would like to. It’s pretty well-written. I just have to illustrate it, and then figure out how to get it self-published.

Oh my goodness. You have my support for that! That sounds so great.

Thank you! I’d have to get you to review it for me.

I’d be happy to! That sounds so good.

Yeah, it’s helpful actually, teachers especially.

Yeah, I’d be happy to. So, how do you define success?

At this point in my life, it’s just internal peace. Health is critical. Self-care. Kindness. Curiosity. Courage to change things when you have to.

Yeah. That’s a big one.

Yeah. Yep. I think I’m successful in having amazing and courageous kids, good friends, loving partner. And at the end of the day, accepting that I can’t fix everything. And really trying to be okay with being imperfect, instead of controlling the dynamic.

Yeah, definitely. Is there anything you wanted to talk about that I didn’t ask?

I don’t think so! I think you’ve covered quite a lot.

Yeah, cool. That’s all the questions I have! Any final thoughts?

Final thoughts. I would say just… If your purpose of doing these podcasts is to try and show some wisdom, get younger people thinking, maybe… It’s just, trust yourself. And do the work. Therapy is the smartest thing you can do, for everybody. We used to think… There was a perception that it was a sign of weakness. Now it’s a sign of strength. You’ve really got to know yourself. And I know I didn’t know myself as a young woman. Not at all. And I just wish people to be more prepared.

Yeah. Definitely.

Every generation of parents tries to do better than the last generation. And maybe we do. Maybe we don’t. We always screw up. But hopefully there is a little bit more awareness coming in around mental health. That’s what I really wish for.

Yeah, I’d like to think so. I do feel like there are just more resources now, too.

Yeah, that’s right. You’re more likely to come across things.

Yeah, and like free things online, and online therapy! There are so many resources.

That’s right, yes!

Yeah! Okay well thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me. This was great!

You’re welcome, I enjoyed it!

—

Follow Claire on Instagram @claire.benson.927! Thanks for listening, and tune in again next month for the next interview :)

Season 4 - Episode 1 - Interview with Ann Chikahisa

Welcome to Season 4 of the Wise Not Withered Podcast! We are back with interviewing interesting women who are doing some really cool things!

Today's guest is Ann Chikahisa, creator of Chikahisa Studio. In our interview, Ann talks about how she got started making jewelry, the ways that jewelry can move through generations in a family, "Creative Zen", challenges, successes, and future plans.

Check out chikahisastudio.com to purchase Ann's beautiful handmade jewelry, and follow her on Instagram, @chikahisastudio!

 

~

 

Wise Not Withered - Interview With Ann Chikahisa

 

Your name—is it Ann or Ann [pronunciation]?

Ann.

Ann, okay. And is it Chikahisa?

Yes, that’s perfect!

Okay, excellent, cool! Yay, I said it right! Okay, just to start off, how old are you?

I am 59!

59, awesome. Can you describe the work that you do?

I am a jeweler. I hand make jewelry for women who like to stand out in the crowd.

And how did you get into that?

It just began as a passion. I was taking classes at an art studio, making jewelry. When you talk to any metalsmith, pretty much everybody gets bitten by the bug, and they become obsessed, like I did. There’s something very alchemic about it—just working with a piece of metal, and then turning it into a piece of jewelry. So that’s how I started. I was taking classes at a local jewelry studio, and then I started making jewelry for all my friends, giving it to them for birthday presents or whatever, and then a friend of mine said, “Oh, you should sell your jewelry!” One thing led to another—she threw a trunk show for me, and that’s how the business began!

Nice! And did you say a trade show?

Trunk show. So my friend invited a bunch of friends over to her house, and I put my jewelry out, and I was very, very fortunate a lot of people loved it and bought it that night. And that’s how the business began.

Okay, yeah. Nice! And how has it changed over time?

Well when I first started making jewelry, I did beading. So I bought gem stones and bindings—things that were already pre-made—and put them together. So that’s how I first began. And then I had so much fun mixing metals and mixing materials that I decided that I wanted to learn how to actually make those pieces instead of buying them pre-made. And that’s when I took the art classes.

And so as I’ve taken more classes, and made my own style and voice, my jewelry has progressed over the years, and has become much more defined in terms of my own personal style and signature look. You kind of find your rhythm and find out who you really are when you’re an artist. And sticking with that point of view and that voice has been really fun. So it’s like a road of self-discovery to figure out who you are, and how you wanna tell the world who you are through your art.

Yeah. Oh, that’s great. You mentioned on your website learning from your mother, who learned from her mother. Can you talk more about that generational teaching and learning?

Yeah, in Japanese culture—I’m third generation Japanese American. In Japanese culture, the arts are very, very prominent. In our culture, we really look for beauty in everything that we do. We surround ourselves with beauty. So it’s been handing down through the generations in my family. When I say that quote about I learned from my mother, who learned from her mother… My grand-mother on both sides, they did Japanese flower arranging, which is called ikebana. They also were sewers, made their own clothing, and did all kinds of things with their hands. My grandmother also did some beadwork, made little handbags.

So she did all those kinds of things, and taught my mother. My mother was very big on sewing, and knitting, and those kinds of things. As a child, I learned all of those skills from my mother. So it’s just been ingrained in our family history and our culture.

Yeah, nice, okay. Let’s see… So you talked about—

Can you hold on one second?

What’s going on, if you don’t mind my asking?

We’re working in the studio—my assistant was pounding and stuff, so I didn’t know if you could hear it.

Oh! Oh, cool yeah, I couldn’t. It must be the Air Pods.

Okay, good. All right!

Yeah, so you make a lot of it yourself, but you also have assistants that help you out too?

Yep. I have one assistant. She works like three-quarter time with me. She helps me put together things for the store—helps me supply the pieces for our online shop.

Okay, nice! So you mentioned learning from your grandmother and your mother. Are there any other really influential mentors that you’ve had?

Yeah, I do have people that have influenced my work, and influenced my style. It’s been friends and other jewelers that I’ve worked with. I have favorite artists that have influenced my style and my aesthetic. Georgia O’Keefe is somebody I’ve always admired. I love her work. Calder is another person. I am just amazed by what he does with wire work, how he creates these beautiful sculptures and pieces of jewelry. Noguchi was a Japanese artist who did a lot sculptural work, and I love his work as well. It’s both famous people and just people in my life that have influenced my work.

Yeah, okay. And can you talk more about “Creative Zen”? I thought that was really interesting.

(Laughs) Thank you. So for me, when I am working, there’s a zone, that creative zone where you get into this space where time doesn’t exist. And it’s almost like mediating. You just get in this space of not thinking and not worrying, or anything. And you’re just working. And it’s the coolest experience, because you’re really letting your inner voice and your inner spirit guide you on your design and what you’re creating.

And so it becomes part of you that comes out, because you’re not thinking, you’re not judging. That little inner critic voice, that comes out and says “Don’t do this. Don’t do that.” It’s really getting into this flow and letting it happen. And it is so fun. When I get into that zone, and I start working, it could be eight hours, and it feels like ten minutes. It’s such a fun place. And that’s what I call my creative genius, because it’s really you’re just flowing and working and things come out that you never dreamed would come out, because you’re not thinking about the outcome. You’re just letting it happen.

Right, yeah. Oh, I love that. How about on the flip side? What do you do when you don’t feel as inspired?

Which is a lot! (Laughs) You know, I will say, it is really hard to get into that zen zone. So when I’m not in that zone, and I’m trying to create, it’s really, really hard, because it’s like forcing something to happen. So to get back into that zone, or to try to feel into that again, I’ll do a lot of walking. Just going out and walking, and letting my mind go. And I also do a lot of meditation, and that helps as well, because you’re getting into that non-thinking, letting things go, kind of state.

And yoga also is another powerful tool for me when I’m stuck creatively. Just moving that energy in my body to get back into that creative space, is basically what I’m trying to do. Whether with the walking, the yoga, or the meditation.

Yeah, yeah. Getting out of your head and back into your body.

Yeah.

Yeah, I love that. How about your talisman pieces? Can you talk about those? Those were really cool, on your website.

Thank you! That has become my most personal part of my collections. And it really was kind of a thing that just happened. I was going through a lot of major life changes, like most of us in our forties and fifties—life just changes. And so I needed something to help me through a big change, and I didn’t know how else to do it.

I was kind of at a loss. I just knew I needed something that I could hold close to me, that I could hang on to, to help me manifest my stability and my life, moving forward. So I decided to just make a piece. I wanted it to be artistic, and sculptural, and something that had a lot of meaning to me. And I didn’t want it to be literal. So the first one I created was “Hope”. Because to me, if you don’t have hope, you… There’s nothing left in your world, right? You need hope to get you through the bad times.

So I created the Hope talisman, it’s got a little spinel in it—spinel represents hope. And I created it and I just started wearing it, and women responded to it. They liked it, commented on it. So I started designing more pieces, not only for them but also for me. Each one has a different meaning: strength, healing, reflection, compassion, wisdom… Each one has a different meaning, and it’s like a little piece of art. And you can collect them, and put them together to help you manifest what you’re working on at that particular moment, or that particular month, or time in your life.

And the feedback has been great. I’ve gotten amazing messages back from my customers on how they were able to mark their journey and their life at that particular time with the talisman, or how it’s helped them stay focused on meeting a goal that they were trying to bring into their life. So it’s been really fun.

I create maybe four of them a year, and each one is different. So it’s an evolving process. It’s fun for me, as well as for the customers, to collect them, and come up with new inspirations for their life.

Yeah. Do you often do custom things for customers?

In terms of the talismans, or just in general?

I guess both! Maybe start with the talismans, and then in general.

Okay. I haven’t done a custom talisman, only because it takes a lot of time and energy to create one concept. So to do a one-off would not probably be too cost-effective. But I have done a lot of custom work in terms of personal jewelry. And how that usually works is I will take someone’s old heirloom gems, and rework them into something new. And that’s really rewarding for both of us—me and the customer.

Jewelry is such… It travels through families, it becomes an heirloom. And it holds so much energy and meaning, to the person it’s coming from, and who it’s given to. But sometimes, the style isn’t your style any longer, but you still want to hold that piece in your life, in your jewelry box. So I work with my clients in taking those old pieces and reworking them and fitting it into the look of what they will wear. Then they can pass it on to their children, or somebody that has meaning in their life that they want to share it with.

So the gem will continue through the generations, and carry on. When we rework it, the iteration of it changes to fit that person’s life at that current time. That’s what’s so cool about jewelry. It’s an heirloom. I have a couple pieces from my grandmothers that are from the 1920’s. They’ve gone through my mother’s lifetime, and now my lifetime, and it will probably go to my son as well, and his children. So it’s really cool to have your jewelry go on and live on beyond your lifetime.

Yeah! I wanted to ask more specifically, if you wanted to talk about, which specific pieces are in your family?

Yeah, I have three pieces that I really cherish. One is the engagement ring from my grandmother. It’s a platinum vintage set ring, and I just love it. It’s got this really delicate setting on it. It’s not something that I would ever particularly wear, but I love it so much because it’s from her, and she gave it to me before she passed away.

And then my other grandmother gave me this really cool fresh water pearl vintage piece, also kind of in the same era… Probably early 40’s, and it has that vintage look as well. And it’s so beautiful, and I love wearing it. But I only wear it around the house, because I would be devastated if I wore it and I lost it. So I always wear that around the house.

The third piece I love is this enamel pin that has a road runner on it that my father gave me. He never really ever bought me jewelry except for this piece, and one other. So I’ve had these since I was maybe thirteen or fourteen. I’ve just kept them in my jewelry box. It’s so special that my father bought them for me, and I just cherish them. And he’s no longer with us, so it’s something that I hold and when I look at them, it brings back very fond memories.

That’s the power of jewelry! The energy of someone giving it to you, you remember when they gave it to you, and the meaning that it has in your life.

Yeah. Maybe along the lines of losing your dad… What are some of the greatest challenges you’ve had in your life—whether in your business or just in general?

Well… Obviously losing my dad was very hard, I was very young. Well not super young. I was twenty-eight. At the time, maybe you don’t feel that young. But looking back I was very young. And the hardest thing is that he didn’t get to see me grow up as an adult. He only knew me as a kid, really. He didn’t get to see me progress in my career, and have a family, and all those kinds of things.

More recently, I got divorced. That was really challenging. Trying to start my life again, and make sense of who I am and what I wanna do in the rest of the second half of my life, has been a big challenge. And then of course, having a business—owning and running a business is very challenging, yet very rewarding. I’ve learned so much about myself, about who I am, what I’m good at, what I’m not good at. And how to make decisions, learn from my mistakes. I’ve made lots of mistakes…

I think one of the best things I’ve learned about having a business is surrounding myself with people who are smarter than me, that help me, teach me how to do things better. Because you can’t do everything by yourself—you really need to have a team. And choosing that team has been really fun. I’ve met some amazing people, made some incredible relationships that have transformed not only me personally but also my business. So that’s been really fun.

Yeah. Awesome. Thank you so much for sharing all of that. How about some of your greatest successes?

Some of my greatest successes… I think one of the biggest things I’m really proud of is taking my business from having no online sales a few years ago, to now generating almost all of my revenue through online sales. So that’s been a long journey, a hard journey. But it’s been so rewarding to know that if you just put your head down, and take baby steps, and figure out what works and what doesn’t work… Just keep tweaking and staying with it, and having that resolve to do something. You can make it happen. So that’s probably my biggest accomplishment, I would say.

Okay, and how do you define success?

Oh gosh… I think success is multifaceted. Of course, from a business standpoint, success is, you know, financial. Do I reach my goals? Have I made a profit? Those kinds of metrics. But I think for me also, what is most important is, how do I feel at the end of the day about what I’m doing? And am I living up to my values? Am I living up to my vision? And those are two really big metrics for me in terms of success and how I run my business.

So they go kind of hand-in-hand, right? I couldn’t be successful if I didn’t make money–because then it would be a hobby. And then how do I run the business financially to make money but also still hold those values?

Right. And if you’re willing to share, what are some of those values?

So for me, one of the biggest things that I strive to do with my business is to be a company that values their customers, and to be easy to work with. We work very hard at customer service. And to make sure that our customers feel heard and seen by us, and that we treat them with the utmost respect. Because when I go and shop at a company or business, I always want to feel like they care about me. And that’s what we really try to do—care for our customers, and hear what they have to say, and make sure that our brand exceeds their expectations. That’s one of the most important things for our values as a company.

Yeah, that makes sense! Can you talk about the trade show you went to recently?

Yeah, I went to a trade show in New York, and that was super fun! I had been doing wholesale about four or five years ago, and then just took a break from it. And I decided to re-look at this, and try it again. The energy was so great—I had such a good time going there. I think now that it’s… Sort of post-pandemic? I don’t know if you can say it’s post-pandemic. But now that the world is opening up again, it was really fun to see old wholesale customers who I hadn’t seen in four years. And also meet a whole bunch of new people.

And the energy of the show was so fabulous. People were excited, they were interested. Lots of really good questions. And just being in a collective energy was really wonderful. And this was a gift show, so there were people with all different kinds of products, it wasn’t just jewelry. It was a lot of home goods, personal care—makeup, skin care—and then there was also clothing there. It was really fun to be around so many creative energies, as well as buyers from all different kinds of stores. So I had a great time!

All right, we’re wrapping it up. Do you have any plans for the future? Anything exciting in store?

Yeah! I am working on some new things and I can’t wait to reveal. And so we’re gonna be launching some stuff in… Summer. So we’re not gonna spill the beans yet, so you’ll have to follow me on social media or check me out on the website. We’re also doing a little… We’ve already created some lifestyle products—bowls and trays, for the home. We’re gonna be expanding that portion of the collection as well. That’s been really fun, and we’ve gotten a lot of good feedback from our customers.

Nice! Sounds pretty exciting!

Yeah! Thank you.

Yeah, is there anything else you’d like to share before we wrap up?

I am just so thankful that you reached out. It’s been great to come and chat with you and share my story, so I really appreciate it. And yeah, thank you for your time!

Yeah, this has been really great. Thank you so much!

Season 3 - Episode 14 - IDEAL CIRCUMSTANCES, HUMANIZING PARENTS, AND COMFORT WITH UNKNOWNS

Thanks for tuning in to the next episode of the Wise Not Withered Podcast! It's Episode 14 of Season 3. The key points of this episode are as follows:

- Things take time!

- Waiting for circumstances to be "ideal" before beginning

- Generational beliefs -> humanizing parents

- Becoming comfortable with unknowns

Season 3 - Episode 13 - NORMALIZE CHANGING YOUR MIND, FEELING OLD, AND MORE INTERVIEWS TO COME!!

Happy New Year! Welcome to another episode of the Wise Not Withered Podcast! It's still Season 3, and this is Episode 13. Today's key points are as follows:

- Normalize changing your mind - allow new perspectives that resonate to change your beliefs and behaviors

- What does it mean to "feel old"?

- Holding myself accountable by talking about plans to do more interviews this year :)

Season 3 - Episode 12 - HUMANITY & CYCLES OF CREATIVITY

 

Thanks for tuning in to Episode 12 of Season 3 of the Wise Not Withered Podcast! This one is truly a free-form episode, with lots of twists and turns! Here are some of the key points that I talk about:

1. Recognize humanity within ourselves and each other
2. Cycles of consumption, integration, and creation
3. Every single person you encounter knows something that you don’t

Happy Holidays, Happy New Year, and see you again in 2023! :)

Season 3 - Episode 11 - MINI CHARACTER SHOWCASE & THOUGHTS ON AUTHENTIC CHARACTER CREATION

Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the Wise Not Withered Podcast! This month's episode is a mini character showcase, from games and cartoons that I like, and a bonus impromptu tidbit from me about authentic character creation!

The characters I talked about were as follows:

1. Ana (Overwatch)

2. Nanefua (Steven Universe)

3. Katara (Legend of Korra)

4. Madame Razz (She-Ra)

5. Professor Magnolia (Pokémon Sword & Shield)

Season 3 - Episode 10 - BODY CHANGES & GENDER IDENTITY

Welcome to Episode 10 of Season 3 of the Wise Not Withered Podcast! Today's episode may be slightly controversial—if you have strong opinions about anything brought up in this episode, feel free to contact me! I'd encourage you to examine your own reaction first though :)

The key points are as follows:

1. Diastasis recti - and other conditions that can radically alter bodies, especially during/after pregnancy

2. Brief thoughts on masculinity, femininity, relationship dynamics/polarity

3. Non-binary—what role gender plays in this project

4. Diversity - trying to please everyone vs. keeping it narrow and specific

5. Goal is to see more of something we haven't seen a lot of—NOT to exclude or shame anyone (no way that can be perfect and 100% without personal bias)

Season 3 - Episode 9 - BOUNDARIES, TOURING WITH A TERMINAL DIAGNOSIS, LIKING EM HOT

Thanks for tuning in to this month’s episode of the Wise Not Withered Podcast! Today’s five key points are as follows:

1. Boundaries and maturity, especially when meeting new people; let things come up and unfold naturally
2. Hearing aid game mechanic
3. 6 months to travel with a terminal diagnosis —> makes sense or no???
4. Dancer story was gonna be a murder mystery
5. High school Algebra teacher commenting on a young hockey player

Season 3 - Episode 8 - SPECIFIC PLANS & FIGHTING AGAINST A CULTURAL NARRATIVE

Thanks for tuning in to this month’s episode of the Wise Not Withered Podcast! Today’s five key points are as follows:

1. See the good in people, especially those that want to see the good in me
2. Being ultra-specific with plans —> ensures follow-through
3. Starting grad school; I’m older than a lot of other students on this college campus—owning my age, no shame. I refuse to automatically feed into this cultural narrative that instructs women to fear and be ashamed of aging!
4. Feeling like a fraud with this project, felt like giving up a few times; giving myself grace
5. Wise Not Withered as a concept is truly becoming a lifestyle for me