Wise Not Withered

Season 4 - Episode 13 - Interview with Manpreet Johal Bernie

Hello and welcome to the Wise Not Withered Podcast! This is Season 4, and we are on Episode 13. This will actually be the last episode of Season 4; I will do a pivot into Season 5, and I'll talk about that next month. This month's guest was Manpreet Johal Bernie. I found her first through Tiny Buddha, where she has written many different kinds of articles. She also has her own podcast, called Heart's Happiness. She is a transformational coach and a writer; she made a fascinating transition from what she used to do and how it translates to the work she does now. TRIGGER WARNING: She does talk about self-harm and suicide. I do want to also say that even though we talk a lot about trauma, one of the main points she also stands for is post-traumatic GROWTH. I'm really honored and excited to share the final episode of Season 4 with Manpreet Johal Bernie. She is just such a warm, loving, kind-hearted soul, and I can't wait for you to hear her story.

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Cool so, let’s see, is it Manpreet? Am I saying that right?

Yeah, it says Manpreet. So I have got married since I got Zoom, so it’s Manpreet Johal Bernie, and my Podcast and all the things I do is Heart's Happiness.

Yeah, Heart's Happiness. That’s so… It’s just so wholesome, I love it.

Thank you!

Yeah. All right, let's start with… What’s your age?

So I am… I’ve just turned 42, and I can't remember that, because I feel like I'm 25!

(Laughs) Yeah, and talk more about that. What do you mean you feel like 25?

As I've got older, I seem to have way more ambition for my life than I did when I was 25, so I can't quite believe that I'm 42, because I'm living more as a 42-year-old than I did when I was 25 because I was in a lot of pain when I was 25, so… Very different. But it's just, the number’s getting bigger.

Mhm, yeah, amazing. And so where did you grow up, and where do you live now?

So I was born and raised in London in the UK, and I lived there… I moved around London but my whole life I didn't leave London—like the city and you know, well, I was in the suburbs, but generally that whole area—until I was like 39, which is, you know, part of my new life, my new chapter. I didn't really know who I was when I was living in London, so I was raised in my family. There's lots of trauma and lots of difficulties and I was just caught up in all of that and I had like a career in London where I worked for big companies in IT and change management and things like that.

So I was just really caught up in the world, like London, like New York, and these big cities, you know… It's like lots of like going out, and drinking, and work that I didn't enjoy and then all my dramas that was at home, so I was just caught up in this whole bubble there. But as you get older, and you start… I began my own healing journey, I started to figure out who I was, and actually I don't love the city life, so I'm now in, more near the coast in the UK. So in Kent, which is like south, so lots of like nature, walks, and sunsets and a much smaller pace of life. Well, not my job, but, you know, just outside my house anyway, so I love it here. So it's really real different, but again, a big decision that I made as I got older, as I decided to discover who I truly am!

Yeah! Yeah, and I want to dive into all of that. I'm so curious. What is your… What is the work that you do?

So I am a trauma transformation coach and mentor.

Okay, so you mentioned IT, so you have made the transition…

Completely changed.

Amazing, okay.

I used to do change management for big companies. I now do that for people!

(Laughs) Okay!! Yeah!

It was a complete accident. It's not what I was trained in like. I went to university here in the UK and I did like… I did it to please my dad. Actually he was a computing teacher, so I did computing and business analysis and all of this kind of stuff. But it's just my own journey. As I started to get older, I lost my dad to suicide when I was 26, and so the person that I had created this whole life to please was no longer alive. And when I started to struggle myself, like in my mid-30’s, after he'd been gone for a long time, I started to have real issues myself, like especially in romantic relationships, with my relationship with alcohol, with doing work, I didn't like, I was just really struggling.

So I got into a sort of rock bottom situation and… I was like mid to late 30s couldn't get into a healthy relationship, and it was then that I was like, am I just gonna be like my dad? Am I gonna take my life, or… Am I, you know, I'm gonna be like my family and just be unhappy? Like what's going on with me? I started my own journey of like, healing and discovery, and that is the journey that led me to my work. So it's a complete accident.

What happened was I was going to therapy, but I remember being in therapy and being like, okay, I get that I've got all of this like childhood trauma and that's why I'm being a complete crazy person with men, but like, how do I change this? I remember saying… I just, like I don't know if I'm allowed to swear, but I was like, how do I do that?

Go ahead!

It was like, how do I not be fucked? That’s what I said to her.

Yeah, so real.

I became obsessed with like okay, well, is there a way I can change? So I worked on changing basically, and then I started to get people ask me, how have you changed? Like how did you break that pattern? How did you used to be this like, woman with really low self-esteem and low confidence and bad relationships, and you know, I was very single for many, many years. How did you get to change that and be something else?

So I was like oh, and I would tell my story, and it wasn't until you know COVID times and 2020 that I was like, oh, maybe I should start sharing it on a podcast because, podcasts had been so helpful for me as a medium, as part of me understanding what was going on with me. So that's how I kind of started with Heart's Happiness, which is my podcast, and then people started to reach out to me and say, could you teach me what you did?

So the very first thing I did was I just created a course and I was like, step by step, like I would be training at work, for like a custom change. I was just teaching them how to do what I did. And then it kind of evolved from there where people started to ask me to do it one-to-one and then I started to train in some of the modalities that really helped me, like EFT tapping, and eye movement, and NLP, and things like that. So I trained, but all of this time I was still working in the corporate world. So I used to work for the VPC in their IT. I wasn't like a media person. So I was doing both at the same time. But the more that I was getting interested with Heart's Happiness, I was like this is what really sets my soul on fire. So actually I'd really like to leave. So I left, just… I'd been running Heart's Happiness for about a year and a half, so I left just before my 40th birthday and, yeah, best thing ever! And slowly, slowly, it's just been growing! And I've got like clients all over the world. I get to teach them my methodology. And it’s turning into some other thing now as well, where I get to help other people turn their healing journey into their work as well.

So I've got like little business-starting, and helping people like that. You know, with that transformation that I made as well, so it's been really cool to turn all of that pain into something else.

Right, yeah, that's so inspiring! I love that. Yeah, can you talk more about your podcast? There’s… I've listened to a few episodes. There's like the three areas, like what are the main parts of your podcast?

Yeah, so I have a lot of guests on. I do bring people on that are like you know… Because when I started I wasn't a professional myself, so I bring in like experts, like therapists and coaches and healers and people that could help others to undo what's happened in their lives and make them feel better. So that was kind of what I decided to start with and share my story. Like I really feel that when we share stories, we help people to understand their own story.

So that's kind of where I started, but then, as time went on, I discovered that I was some kind of teacher about this stuff. So I do a lot of content on you know, like how we can change, and, like you know, delving into different issues to do with trauma. So you know, dysfunctional relationships, trauma in the body and how we can change those things. 

The addictions that happened during the process, like you know, what I was actually doing in relationship with men was actually called love addiction, so it was very like, almost like intoxicated by men that were very unavailable, but that's very common with people like ourselves that have been through trauma. So sharing stuff like that, talking about traumas and yeah, so it's very much to do with mental, spiritual, emotional wellbeing, but it's very holistic and we talk a lot about health as well and how even we can eat to heal you know our trauma and things like that. So it's really evolved over years, but it's still my favorite part of the week. So I love sharing and I've shared pretty much… I think two weeks I've missed, but for the last three and a half years I've pretty much had a podcast out every week.

Wow, every week. Amazing.

Yeah, been a long time, so I haven't done seasons or anything, it's just been like a consistent thing. But it's mad, because I'll get somebody you know from where you are, like reach out or Australia, or like all parts of the world. And people that from different backgrounds, they're not the same upbringing as me and we've just got the same story. It's just… To hear that my random content help people like that is kind of cool. 

Yeah, yeah, it's definitely so… It's so powerful. Yeah, just resonates with a lot of people.

Yeah.

Let’s see, I guess getting a little lighter. What are some of your hobbies that you do outside of all this intense work? (Laughs)

(Laughs) I know I do really love it, though it's great, of course. 

Right, of course.

I do actually really love it, so to the point that it's really hard to just come from the point of me or the business stuff, because I'm really into like self development and personal development anyway. So I am quite spiritual, do love the woo-woo’s! So I love like reading spiritual books or self-help books. I just cannot get enough. It's terrible. Like I went on holiday recently for my birthday and you know I read just so many books. That's just like my thing. So I do love traveling and seeing the world. I always loved that before as well. I love reading and just… I do have a natural desire for all the things that I bring into my work. So just everything about that, like you know, and going to sound baths and sound healings. It's like a way that I can help my clients, my teaching, stuff like that, but it's something for myself. 

Right.

It was really interesting. Through this journey of setting up my business and also helping other people and being on my own healing journey, I've really discovered who I am. So years ago I would have been someone very, very different. Like I would have been… I wouldn't even consider myself like more extroverted, but I'm actually really introverted. So I'll actually just love, like, being now and just like you know nature, I do love to see the world, I love to learn and I love connecting with people that are like deep and don't mind talking about the crazy things about life. I love a conversation. I still… I used to work for fashion companies, still love things like fashion and things like that and like finding ways to be creative. Yeah, I just love and I love… I do love what I do. Like, so I love meeting and hearing people's stories and watching those people just transform. It's incredible. I guess I just feel really blessed that I feel, just like… You know, like actually really like my life when I used to just absolutely hate it. 

Right, yeah, that's beautiful, I love it. 

I had to create it. You know, like it wasn't like that. It was… And I didn't even know who I am, and I'm still discovering who I am. I really enjoy it. Because for so many years I was just like people-pleasing and about what other people wanted from me, or what society expected. You know, especially even… You know, as a woman, I never had aspirations to like grow a brand or, you know, grow a business, like it felt like a real thing that I wasn't really into. But I love that now! I love helping women to be independent and create their own finances and, you know, use it for the good of the world and stuff like that.

I didn't even think I was, you know, like into that kind of achieving or anything like that, but I do love it. I actually do really love business, which is weird. 

Yeah, and that is somewhat recent.

Yeah, I never would have thought that was who I was before.

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Read the full transcript on wisenotwithered.com

Season 4 - Episode 12 - Interview with Claudia Ortega-Lukas

Thanks for listening to another episode of the Wise Not Withered Podcast! This is Season 4, and we are on episode 12. This month's guest was Claudia Ortega-Lukas. She is a graphic designer. She shares an interesting story about how her job has evolved over the decades, as technology has also evolved. She shares her experience being a stepmother, and also her relationships with her own parents. She also talks about this duality of different cultures, two different worlds, which is actually how I found her, through an article she wrote a few years ago. In addition, she talks about her community, support system, and challenges she has overcome as well as what she is facing now.

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Thank you so much for joining the podcast! What is your age?

I'm 60 years old.

60. Okay.

Just turned 60.

Nice. When’s your birthday?

September.

Oh, September. Okay. Awesome.

I’m a Libra!

Oh, you're a Libra. Okay, awesome. Are you into astrology much?

Not really. I just thought I liked the, I don't know, I guess we're always saying, you know, what sign you are, but I'm not really into it a lot. I've read it every now and then. But yeah.

Mhm. And where did you grow up?

I grew up in Mexico City. So, well actually in a town called Texcoco. We were born in Mexico City and then shortly after I was born, my family moved to Texcoco which you know back when I was born, it was probably a whole hour drive to Mexico City. But now I think they're like, pretty much, you know, have touched borders.

Okay. And where else have you lived?

So from from there from just Texcoco, I spent a semester with one of my mom's relatives in Denton, Texas. And then we moved to Guadalajara when I went to college, and then when I was there in college, I was an exchange student at the University of Oklahoma. Norman, Oklahoma. And then, I came back for a short period of time and then I actually enrolled at the University of Missouri for a master's degree. And so I moved to Columbia, Missouri, to go to school.

Okay.

And from there, I got a job and Reno, and then I came to Reno and I was here working for their newspaper for two years. And then I got a job with another newspaper in Savannah, Georgia. And then I went there… And I worked there for another two years. But before I left, I managed to meet my husband. Well, you know, the guy who is my husband now. So, yeah, so I was two years in Georgia. And then I came back. We got married there and then came back here and settled in Reno.

Okay, so you're in Nevada now. Okay. Awesome. And what do you do for a living?

I'm a graphic designer.

Oh, okay!

That's why… Yeah, I think that's what I wanted to do since I was middle school, although I didn't know what it was. But, you know, I did my own collages for my binders and things like that. And so, by the time I was in college, I knew that that's what I wanted to do.

Okay. Yeah. And so take us through, like, what all does that entail? So, like making collages on your binder, then how did that translate into the work that you do now?

Well, I mean, it's basically just the, you know… When I was in middle school, it was just basically, you know, kind of making a collage of all of the things that I liked. And then in a way that I thought was, was nice looking. By the time I went, when I got to college, I started working at a newspaper. So I was going to school, from 8:00 to 1:00. And then I was working from 2:00 to 8:00 or 2:00 to 10:00, depending, at the newspaper. So I was doing layout. And that's when I realized that that’s sort of something that I really liked. And I think, working at a newspaper, when I was in college, was really sort of what got me into both technology, and you know, the… I was refining kind of how I was doing.

So basically, I was provided with all of the stories that had to be in on one page, or two pages, or the whole section. And then I had to use the photograph that I had available for each of the stories and I had to, you know, lay out a page that, would have a dominant element, a dominant headline, you know, had entry points would kind of guide the reader through it or tease the reader, you know, kind of thing. So, and then yeah, and then that's basically kind of what I did, I did that when I was all the way through school. And then when I move to… When I got my masters, my master's is in magazine and newspaper design. So basically, that was a little bit more emphasis on publication design.

It's different from… You can do a poster layout. But it's slightly different when you're doing stories. Because you know, in a poster you you have less elements, in a way, because you have very limited space to tease the reader into what you want them to read, or you want them to be intrigued. And with the story, it kind of goes on and on, you know, it's a longer piece. So you have to you have to design it in a way that the reader can… If they're just sort of glancing at the page. If the headline doesn't intrigue them, maybe the photo does, maybe the photo caption, maybe a quote, maybe some of the sub-heads, or you have like a little sidebar. And so, so that's kind of what I did mostly. When I came to the Reno Gazette-Journal here in Reno, I was doing just mostly one of their small publications, which was… It was sort of like advertorial, we call it, so it's like a mix of advertising and a mix of editorial content.

And then when I went to Savannah, I was actually the features and sports editor. And so just like, Design Editor. And so basically, making sure that all of the graphic designers that were doing those pages have all of the elements that they needed to try to make the paper and the stories sing, right. And so, yeah, I did love working for newspapers, you know, but then once I moved back to Reno, when Tim and I got married… The newspaper life is like, you work late, you work weekends, you know, it's just a little bit like, you don't have a lot of the normal hours, right, that people like to enjoy, like, you know, dinner time and things like that. (Laughs)

My husband has two children, two boys. And so when we got married, they were five, and eight. Five, and nine, something like that. And so he was like, you know, I think it'd be better if you don’t work nights. He’s like, I'd like to have dinner together, all together. And so I went to teach! I did a brief teaching at the university here. And it was still teaching magazine layout, basically. And then there was an opportunity for me to apply for a position for a full time graphic designer for the office of marketing communications. And so then that's what I started doing. I used to do the alumni magazine. And then in between just serving all of the different units on campus, or, you know, different design needs.

And the job has changed slightly through the years. You know, there's certain things that I don't do at all anymore. There are some things that I started doing to serve the web that I don't do anymore. And then I did a lot of stuff that was serving a social media, you know, and so I do some of it, but not as much. So it's just sort of like a little, you know, ebb and flow type of jobs, but all of them have been designed. Layout and design.

Okay. Yeah. Can you talk a little bit more about how things have changed?

Well, you know, for one, the newspapers have started to disappear. Right. And before the newspaper was sort of what you use as your trusted media, right. And so there was a lot of money spent in advertising, to create those newspapers. And when content online became much more, you know, more effective at penetrating the households, and everybody started going there, the advertisers used the money that they were putting into newspapers into the web. And so they strengthened their online presence. But if weakened the newspaper presence, and so then the newspaper start shrinking down.

Right.

And so, a lot of newspapers have folded, a lot of newspapers, you know, have gone from having five or six or seven sections to maybe having two. So that shifts to kind of what, for me… It was nice that like my private life sort of pushed me into getting out of that, into something else. The ones that they offer, marketing communications, is mostly to support efforts and recruiting for the university and to basically communicate with parents and alumni.

So even, you know, for us, we… There was a point when I when I was doing the alumni magazine. We were doing, like, six issues that year. And then he was like, well, we're gonna do four, well, we're gonna do two… And then I think at one point after I stopped doing it, he went to maybe doing it once. And then he was like, well, maybe two.

And so a lot of it has to do how people consume information. And more and more people are much more comfortable going online looking for the alumni news online, rather than having a magazine. Right? And so I printed magazine. There are other things that are still in place, because they are still effective, like, you know, we would produce postcards or brochures for recruiters to take to conferences, so that they can hand out to students, and parents, potential candidates. But even that, you know, sometimes it's like, they just have a big screen, and then they show them what they want to tease them with, right.

So yeah, so my job has changed due to the way people consume information. And information online, now, it's just so much more effective—or it can be much more effective. And easily accessible, right? One of the things that happened when you printed something is that we knew, the moment that we printed something, it was outdated by the next day. Right? So for example, a brochure nowadays. If we do something for recruiting, we can do a brochure, and we do our best to put all the information that we need and QR codes and things like that. But we know that information that is printed can change, right? There can be changes to scholarship applications, to deadlines, to anything like that. So the QR codes now that we add to all of our all of our brochures, postcards, things like that, is to get them to the website where we can update things as they happen.

Right.

So that that has also been one of the major changes, or one of the reasons why things are changing. Because on the web, I mean, if you change a deadline from this morning to this afternoon, you can immediately change it and anybody accessing the information at that point, they will have the correct information.

Read the full transcription on wisenotwithered.com!

Season 4 - Episode 11 - Interview with Helen W

Hello, Happy New Year! And welcome to the Wise Not Withered podcast. We are on Season 4, and this is episode number 11. Today’s guest is Helen W. I found her on Instagram. Her username is 50_over_and_beautiful. And I really loved the vibe of her profile, just so colorful, she looks so happy. Lots of modeling, clothes and food and drinks, and all kinds of different places that she has traveled to. There’s a lot of different performances where she has sung. And she talks about all of those things in our interview. She is truly a citizen of the world. She grew up... And actually, I’ll let her tell you where she grew up and where she has lived all throughout her life. It’s pretty interesting, pretty unique. In addition to all the places where she has lived and visited, she talks about her pretty complex job, and also the intricate family dynamics, of her upbringing with her family of origin, and her dynamic with her son currently. And she also talks about just her experience being an older woman in today’s society... What that means, how she’s been treated by other women, especially—older and younger, and a pretty interesting work-life balance that she has maintained for a pretty long time. So without further ado, here is Helen!

All right, so what is your age?

I just turned 60!

Oh, you just turned 60! When was that?

I turned 60 in September. I think before turning 60, you have this fear, like, “Oh my god… Another decade.” And people regard you as “old”. You think of retirement, yeah… But yeah, I was thinking, because at 60, you get this “Joy Card” in Hong Kong. And then you get like discounts for transportation.

Ohh okay!

Anywhere you go, you’ll be paying 2 Hong Kong dollars. Which means everybody will know that you’re 60. And I was thinking, before I got the card, “Oh, would I actually use it? I’ll use it when I’m alone… If I’m with people, would I use it? Cause then everybody would know I’m 60.” Then when I got it, it’s like… What the heck! Just use it! I mean, I’m entitled to this! (Laughs) This discount to travel, because I’ve actually lived on Earth for 60 years, and contributed, and yeah! I should be proud!

Amazing! I love that!! And what did you call it? Just a discount card? Or did it have a special name?

It’s called a Joy Card!

A Joy Card!

Which is is nice name, isn’t it?

Right!

It’s a nice name, right? Yeah.

I love that!!

Be happy! In your senior age. Yeah.

That is so cool!

Yeah.

Let’s see, so you live in Hong Kong right now. Did you grow up there? Where else have you lived?

Okay. Yeah… I’m quite multi-national, in terms of where I’ve lived. So I was born in Japan. My parents are from China. But I was born in Japan, Tokyo. So I’m Chinese, born in Japan. Okay then, I did not actually do schooling in Japan, cause the family moved. I moved with my mother to Macao. And then from Macao… My parents divorced, so we were living there with my mom—me and my brother, in Macao. And then she found someone and remarried—an Australian Chinese. So we all moved to Sydney.

Oh, wow!

So in my teens, I actually moved to Australia, and grew up in Sydney. Did my education there, did my university there. Then after a few years, I married a Malaysian Chinese. And we moved to Singapore. And then the relationship didn’t really work out, so my child was born in Singapore as well. So we divorced. And then the boss that I was working for, he was a Hong Kong Chinese, and he announced he was moving to Hong Kong, so would you like to come and work for me in Hong Kong? He just got a position, so he invited me if I was looking for something. So I said yeah okay, I’ll come along with you. So that’s how I ended up and stayed in Hong Kong.

Read the full transcript on wisenotwithered.com!

Season 4 - Episode 10 - Interview with Vickie Heath Glosson

"I am truly a positive person. So what you see on my Instagram is just what you get. You know, that might not make you the most popular person. But it makes it much, much, much easier for me, because I’m just being myself.

Mhm. Yeah, can you talk more about that? What made you think of that just now?

I thought about it, because I think sometimes, you see so much doom and gloom… Every social media, everywhere. And then sometimes, when you look at that, or if it’s not the doom and gloom, it’s the… You know, the people talking about being stressed all the time, or body conscious all the time. You know, it’s always negative! And I wonder, why? I mean, is that all people go through in life? Negativity? Yes, I have had moments that I’m pissed off, upset, have gone through things… But you cannot let that just rule and take over your life."

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Welcome to the Wise Not Withered podcast! We are in Season 4, and this is Episode 10. This month's guest is Vickie Heath Glosson. I found her on Instagram, where she describes herself as "Gray hair beauty influencer and motivator with an eclectic lifestyle. Encouraging personal growth and a beacon of positivity and creativity." She truly is just so varied in all of her interests and activities that she does. She talks about her upbringing, as well as all kinds of things she's into now, such as her hair, her gardening, her teaching, her collaborations (being an ambassador for various beauty products), and she truly is just such a warm, beautiful soul. It was such a pleasure to talk to her and listen to her share so much about her life. And I will let her tell the rest of the story! Enjoy!

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Cool! All right! Let’s just dive right in!

Let’s go for it!

What is your age?

I am 66!

66, excellent. And where did you grow up?

I grew up in the state of Texas, in a small city called Galena Park. It’s right on the outskirts of Houston. So… Houston, Texas.

Okay, nice. And where else have you lived?

I am a born and raised Texan! Yeah! I’m right here. My parents both came from Louisiana, and they settled here in Houston in the mid-50’s.

Okay. Cool, do you know what brought them to where you are now?

Of course! They grew up in the Northern part of Louisiana, and after my mom and dad got married, they settled in Seattle, Washington for a while. But since their parents were in Louisiana, they went back and stayed for a while. But they kinda wanted to live their life on their terms. And they decided on Houston.

My parents were… My dad was a lawyer. My parents were business people. We had a café, growing up. They settled in Houston to do that. In Northern Louisiana, it was a small town… Opportunities were just not there. And so they decided to move on.

Cool, and what do you do for a living? I know you have—you do so many things, but yeah what’s like the main thing, if there is one?

So many things… Actually, educator! I have taught for forty-five years.

Wow!

Actually I retired, then I got rehired because I missed it a little bit. I did that… I started teaching at a very young age of 21, and I taught in the Houston and Galena Park districts. So basically that’s it. I’m an educator, of mostly middle school and high school.

Okay, nice. Oh my gosh. Definitely an eclectic lifestyle, as you say on your page. How did you get into teaching?

Well, my family has been deep into education. Actually, all my sisters above me… And I’ma just step back for a minute: there are eleven of us, okay. Mom and Dad had eleven children, and none of us are twins. My mom actually always wanted to be a teacher, and so I think over the years, hearing her talking about it on the regular… It just got instilled in us, because education was always really important. My grandmother, on my dad’s side, was a teacher for years. So I really came from a long line of educators. So it just became a part… As a matter of fact, my oldest sister right now has been teaching for fifty-five years—in one district!

Wow!

Yes, yes. But all my sisters—and I have brothers. Brothers didn’t go into the teaching. But all my sisters above me—which I am seven from the top! There are, what… Three sisters over me.

Okay. Wow. So just a whole family of teachers.

Yes, teachers, educators of some sort.

Mhm. Okay. Yeah, and what has made you stay in it?

Well, what happened is… I do do a lot of things. I spend a lot of time… I just love the kids! I retired for four years. And then my mom passed, okay… And after she did, my kids were in college. My younger two were in college still. I was like, “Let me sub for a little bit.” So I went in and substituted. I was teaching anyway. I could not be that person just sitting back and not helping my students. And so I went, “Well you know what? If I’m teaching anyway, I’ll just go ahead and go back.” And that’s what I did. I said, “If I get hired, I get hired. If not… You know, I won’t worry about it. I’m retired. It’s been four years. I’m good.” And my second interview, I got hired again! So I said, “Okay, I’ll do this!” It’s been almost six years now since I’ve been back.

Nice! Awesome. All right, yeah… I love so many things that I saw on your profile. One of them was “Encouraging personal growth”. What does personal growth mean to you?

Oh gosh… Just continue doing things, you know? Keep living life, having fun. Yes, there’s always gonna be setbacks, that’s normal. But you just have to persevere. You just have to say, “Okay, that happened. I made a mistake, perhaps.” I’ve learned, and move on! I believe in living, loving, and laughing! That’s kind of my motto. It did not just happen. I was a little quieter in my earlier years, but I’ve always believed that. I believe in family. Doing things that make you happy! If it doesn’t make me happy, I move on.

Yeah, that’s great! I love that. And what does make you happy? I’m sure there’s tons of things, but what comes to mind first?

Family! Family. I love family. I’ve always been family-oriented. I was close daughter to my mother and father. And my children! Oh my goodness. We do so, so much together. I love having them here with me, being around them, doing adventurous things with them. And you know, we’ll just… Family. Family is just the bottom line. They just keep my heart beating. I’m excited about that. And of course, now I have two grand-daughters… That’s just the icing on the cake. (Laughs)

(Laughs) Ah, that’s so cute. What was your relationship like with your mom?

Oh my… We were really close. When I was growing up, like I said I was a little quieter. I was seventh, so I kind of sat back and watched. But she was very, very supportive. The song that I love, love, love—that I feel represents our relationship the most—you know, the wind beneath my wings!

Yeah!

Because she had always been there. Beautiful woman, beautiful heart, very supportive… She’s the one, when I came home from dance classes, just if I learned a new step. She may be in the middle of something, and she’s gonna stop. Whether she liked it or not, it’s like “Oh my goodness, look at you! You done a great job.” You know, she always gave me time. Middle of the night sometimes, I wake up… She’ll be in there sewing. Instead of swishing me back, to go to bed, “Come here, come on! Let me teach you this.” She taught me embroidery, taught me how to sew. And a lot of things were just her and me. I was interested, she knew I was. And if I wanted to learn from her, I did.

You may have noticed, a lot of the pictures are gardening! Oh my gosh. She was an exceptional gardener. And I was right there with her, trying to learn as much as I could about everything. I wondered, “How do you know all this?” You know, remember all that? And I just kind of amazed myself, now, when I can go and do the same, and my kids are right there with me. They’re like, “Mom, how do know all this?”

Ah, I love that!!

But she was… Yeah, just a wonderful person. You know, of course, we had our ups and downs, just like any other mother and daughter, but… An amazing woman. I’m that one to say, “When I grow up, I want to be like you.” A role model.

Yeah… Oh, that’s beautiful. I love that. Yeah, maybe can you talk more about your gardening?

Oh gosh! Oh wow! Okay! I’ve always had a garden. Even in my single days, always had one… 2019 was a real transformation. My son and I—cause I have a son that stays here with me. We had grass in the backyard, the whole works, a courtyard. We decided, you know, let’s do something! He’s very creative. We kinda bonded here together, got our thoughts together. We cleared out every piece of grass, weeds, and we revamped it.

It was really nice, took a while… Then covid hit. It was horrible, a terrible time in life, but we made so much out of it. We went through our whole, entire backyard. We dug it up. We transformed it! And it’s my little paradise—my piece of paradise. We made a biometric type of gardening. A place where not only my family and myself, but for the animals. All the birds… We set it up, the garden for butterflies, the bees. We wanted nature to be part of the yard. That’s how we set it up.

I was taught earlier that when you do gardening, whether it’s a flower garden or vegetable garden, whatever. You know, you do it enough to have enough for yourself, and enough for the animals. They come in and eat your tomatoes, or pick your peppers, whatever they do. There’s always extra. So that’s what we wanted. That’s the way we wanted the garden to be, and that’s how it turned out.

We put gravel over the other areas. We have flower gardens, we have… Oh my gosh. I have peaches, apples, peppers, onions, garlic, greens. Just name it, it’s there. And I love living a healthy life. I love going outside to pick my garden. It has been very healthful, very calming. I’ve loved just sitting back, and watching what I’ve done! I’m very proud of it. So I’ve been keeping it up, and it looks amazing!

Oh, that’s great! How fun. I remember my dad grew some, I think tomatoes. I feel like it tastes a lot better, from the natural garden. (Laughs)

Oh, yes. And you know, they eat a little more than we want them to eat. (Laughs) But we don’t use pesticides. We just try to get there earlier and pick it before they do.

Yeah, that’s so interesting too, to leave enough for the animals too, since it’s inevitable that that’ll happen. Yeah. I love that! How about, can you talk about your hair?

Ahh! Yeah!! Yes, yes, yes. Okay. Yes, I will. It’s a very interesting story. First of all, I actually did… Rinse my hair one. What happened… I had younger children, for my age. My first child was born when I was 32, my last one I was 39. So I was an older parent. And I remember my hair growing out gray. And my youngest son said, “Mom, why don’t you dye your hair?” And remember now, he was around a lot of the younger parents, with blonde, bleach-blonde, or brown hair, whatever… I said, “Dye my hair? Why?” He said, “That way, it’d make you look younger. You oughta give it a try.” Remember now, he was in seventh grade, I believe it was.

And so, I was like, “Well…” I just kinda didn’t want to do that. He mentioned it again, and I said why not. I went in, got my hair rinsed, because I knew it would wash out after a certain amount of washes. It looked amazing! It did. I loved it, I loved it, I loved it. I’m kinda lazy though! (Laughs) I’m kinda lazy when it comes to even dealing with the hair.

I loved it for the moment. You know, I’m happy that I did it. But when it grew out, I was okay. I did this, he thought it was amazing, everyone thought it was amazing. But it wasn’t to the point where I could see myself in the chair, every what, six or eight weeks, getting my hair redone. Nobody said anything else about it from that point. So that was it! It went from a streak of gray right here, in the middle. That streak, years ago, my mom used to say… It was auburn color when I was growing up. She said “It’ll be the first part of your hair that turns gray.” Yes, I had those lovely brothers that called me, you know, skunk! There was a cartoon Josie and the Pussycats. One of the ladies on there had that hair…

But anyway, it continued on. I just went back, after a while. I said, “I love it!” I get compliments. An it’s so amazing. Over the years, I’ve gotten more compliments from men versus women. That was shocking. I was like, “What?” That was pretty interesting. I’ve just kept it. I love it. It’s just easy. And just went from there. Yeah, that’s my hair! Love my hair. And if I had to do it over again, I’d probably do the same.

Yeah, that’s great. All right, so I’ve seen you’ve done a lot of collaborations. You’ve been featured, you’ve been an ambassador… There’s so much! Can you talk about all of that?

Wow… It started with hair. Different companies, that’s where it started. I’m very happy about that. It was during a time where you just did not see women with gray hair, being featured for anything! So it started there, which… That was wonderful. It should have always been a part. When I think about the collaborations, I love the fact that the majority of them kept that in mind: it was because of the gray hair. That’s why I was chosen in the first place, with a lot of them.

With some of them, it’s hard on your hair, because by your hair being this light, certain products turn it green or blue or… (Laughs) We had to learn what did and did not work! So that was kinda interesting, because if you’re gonna collaborate with people and you try the products… I like to be transparent. I’m not gonna sit here and say a product is super great if it’s NOT! Especially when I’m talking to women with light hair, white or silver hair. I always try my products. I let them know, “Hey, I have to do this for a week or two, so I can at least see some kind of reaction.”

Then it moved on to facial products, and then it just became collaborations with a little bit of both. Even with that… If it’s gonna break me out, you know, I’m gonna like, “Okay…!?” I show a picture of it, but I probably won’t talk a whole lot about it. Because I don’t want to deceive people when I get products, just to get paid. I would prefer not getting paid for it, if I could just jump in front of my audience and say, “Yeah! This product works!” This and that. No, I don’t work like that.

As a matter of fact, there’s one I’m working on now, and I’ve only had it for like a week. “Oh, when you gonna come out?” I said, “I haven’t used it long enough!” (Laughs) I said, “I’ll do it so-and-so time.” But yes, I like doing the collaborations. I do a few that are free, but the majority of them I do get paid for them. Yes.

Awesome.

Yeah. I just put one out now, it’s with Moderna. I’ve done one previously with the others, so… It’s pretty good. I’m trying to get to a point where you know, when I retire next time around, I don’t have to go back to teaching. So after a while, you’re kinda like, “Oh it’s that time again.”

Yeah, what was it like to have the first one? Was it surprising to get an email? Or… What was your reaction to that?

It was like, “Oh goodness!” I think the very first ambassador was Fly Hip and Ageless. Wow! That was so cool! And I’m like, “Okay!!” You know… But that was so amazing. I was very excited about that. You’ve probably heard of them, Fly Hip and Ageless. So that was my first ambassador one. Probably… I’m trying to think back. There’s been a lot of them. It’s exciting! And it’s still exciting, after years! And you’re excited because the people see you, notice you, and figure, she is… We like what she does well enough to even want to communicate with her.

I do pick and choose! There are a lot of scammers out there, yes. They’ll put in, “You’re from this, we’re from that.” And you have to really be careful with that. Check emails, check links, you check all those things before you jump into it. That’s the harder part, and I’m glad I have young children! (Laughs) Cause they say, “Mom, that’s a fake account! Check that again.” Or they check it for me. And sometimes if it sounds too good to be true, it IS too good to be true.

But that said, there have been a lot of really good ones, that you would think, “Yeah, sure.” And they’re really good ones, and legit! So, just have to be real careful. I’m very, very picky about that. Because… Yeah, you don’t want your information out there to be stolen. Even though a lot of it gets stolen anyway! (Laughs) You do your best to not let it get stolen.

Yeah, interesting… I also see that you’re into yoga too?

You know, I’m into a healthy lifestyle. Let’s put it that way. Yoga… I was a ballet dancer… Oh my goodness, pretty much the last dance I did I was like 30 years old. So, I just do what makes me feel good. I love stretching! Being limber. I do yoga moves, I do ballet moves. I do some strength training, jogging…

So I kinda just, at this age, I mix what’s best for me. Stretching is the most important part. I can do that, I’ve learned all of that, and I just put it together, and work with it in ways that makes it great for me. You know? I would show it, yes, I do the yoga poses. Did I learn how to do the splits from yoga? No, I learned that from dance! You know what I’m saying? Or my backbend was from my acrobat… I used to be into acrobatics when I was younger.

And I just kept up with them over the years. And yes, at 66, I can still do a backbend. Yes, I can still do the splits! Cartwheel, you know, those kinds of things. I just kept up with it over the years, because it just made me feel good. At the time it wasn’t because of my Instagram. It was because I wanted to do it, and prove things to myself. Hey, can I still do this? And yes. I keep it up. I can’t just specify one thing that I do. It’s a blend. It’s a blend of all that I’ve learned over the years.

Read the full transcript on wisenotwithered.com!

Season 4 - Episode 9 - Interview with Rachael Go

"I’ve questioned a lot in my life, 'Why am I here?' I think we all have had those moments. What is the point? Why am I… Especially me, I’m like, 'Why have I been born into such a crazy, isolating situation? Why ME?' And I know why, now. And it’s to share my story, to help others feel less isolated and less alone, and less weird because we get asked these questions. This is why. And it’s bigger than me. I feel like a lot of our situations that we’re put in, there’s a bigger reason. A bigger why. And now I know. And I’m really proud. I’m proud to be me. I’m proud to share my story, because although it’s a unique one, it’s a hard one, but it’s a beautiful one."

Welcome to the Wise Not Withered Podcast! This is Season 4, Episode 9. This month's guest was Rachael Go. I found Rachael through her own podcast, Mix'd Movement, where she and her siblings discuss their experiences being mixed race. Rachael herself is also a life coach, and shares her incredibly unique and inspiring life story full of confusion, isolation, loss, strength, resilience, and love.

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All right! Let’s just get right into it then!

Okay, perfect!

I feel like I always say that… Let’s get into it. Yeah! So, what is your age?

I am 42 years old.

And what roles do you hold in your life? What do you call yourself, what do other people call you?

Well, I am… Oh my goodness, I feel like over the years I have worn a lot—acquired a lot—of skills. My first career: I’ve been licensed for twenty years as a manicurist, and that’s taken me all over the country in various ways. I am a mother of three. And I am also building a career in coaching, and Podcasting! That is where my focus is, and my passion is right now, and will continue to be! (Laughs) Because it’s a really important topic that I’ve decided to start talking about, and helping people work through, which is being mixed race.

And that is… Something that I feel like we haven’t had a space to talk about it. It’s pretty dynamic, and kind of unique to be mixed race. And especially my age, when I was younger, there wasn’t a place to talk about the complexities. It never felt safe, because nobody really understood. And about two years ago, I had this idea to make that space. Make a change in the world in that realm. So here I am!

Yeah! Oh… There’s so many followup questions I want to ask. Maybe I’ll go in order. So you mentioned you’ve been doing… You’re a manicurist, that means doing manicures? You are the one doing the manicures?

Yes, I am. I am the service provider. And that, especially doing that as long as I have, I feel very blessed to have been able to sit down and get to know people of all ages, all different walks of life, in a very personal and close space. And it’s really interesting when you sit across from somebody directly, they feel a lot safer, and then you add touch—especially physical touch. It’s amazing to me what people have shared with me over the years! I feel very blessed for getting to know so many different people, in such a deep and personal level. Not everyone, but…

That is how my life has changed, though. I’m originally from outside of Chicago, Illinois. The first three years I worked at a salon, on the north side—it was actually my sister’s salon, on the north side of Chicago. And I’ve had several clients, but a few that became friends. And one knew that I wanted to move. I wasn’t sure where I was going to go, and she’s from Washington state. And she said, “You know, I know you want a change! I’m moving back to Washington, if you want to join me!”

And I did! And that was in 2005. Which is wild! (Laughs) I lived here for about three years. And then kind of similar, a hair stylist that I worked with, she and I went on vacation to Maui. We came back, and everything was fine and great and wonderful. Then her life shifted, and she said, “That’s it. I’m moving to Maui. Do you want to join me?” (Laughs) So I moved to Maui! I was there for about three years, then I moved back to Washington.

Okay, I was going to ask how manicuring take you around. But I guess that’s the answer!

Yes, that’s it. Between clients, and coworkers… It’s just kind of in a way that you wouldn’t really expect! Just relationship building.

Yeah, I guess it was important that you mentioned you wanted to move, so your client knew you wanted to move. Putting that out there, having people know what you wanted to do. Yeah… Let’s see… Why don’t you talk about your coaching business? When did you star that, and why? I’m sure there’s so much there!

Yes! It’s funny, because I started this career kind of backwards.

Yeah?

I began with my podcast. And I realized, I completely wanted to build a career in this. I’m very passionate about this topic. I wasn’t sure how to… What facet to go with to earn an income in this realm. And I realized that through the twenty years of being licensed as a manicurist, I’ve developed a lot of really good interpersonal skills! So it just kind of came to me one day. Wow! I have this skill. I also owned a photography business for about five years. And that was great, but I missed working with people.

I learned about coaching, so I decided to apply that into my world. And it is… It has been amazing. Being able to help people like myself—or, actually some people not like myself—work through some really deep things, structure a plan to make shifts in their lives that they’ve always wanted to but had never been able to. I have helped a couple of my clients move out of areas where they didn’t feel safe, because of their race.

Right.

I am working with somebody who is phenomenal and wants to do big things and build an addiction facility for mixed race individuals, because we are the highest demographic to be susceptible to addiction, homicide, depression… So it’s been very rewarding, very incredible in a way that I didn’t expect.

Yeah. And I don’t know if I missed, how long have you been doing it now?

Two years!

Two years, okay.

So I’m relatively new in the coaching realm. But I don’t feel like I am, because of how long I’ve worked directly with people. This is just in a different facet.

Mhm, like more focused now on that versus like, you’re kinda doing is as you’re… Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah, cool! What’s the name of your coaching business?

My coaching business is Love Yourself Coaching. My email address is Coach Rachael Go. And my Podcast is the Mix’d Movement.

Yeah! So talk more about your Podcast! I have listened to I think the first five episodes, and a few others. It’s so great. I am also mixed race, too, and it also felt like, wow these are things that I didn’t realize so many people were experiencing. It’s so relatable!

Oh, I’m glad to hear that. Thank you.

Yeah! So you’ve been doing that also for two years, right?

It launched in May of 2022.

Oh, so it’s been like a year and a half.

Yeah, a year and a half. I mean, it took a lot to get it up and running. (Laughs) But… I love the backstory, I’m not gonna lie. It’s amazing what beautiful things can stem from tragedy.

Right.

I’ll start with my family members. My co-hosts are my half-siblings. We knew of each other, growing up, but we weren’t raised in the same household. We shared the same father, and they share the same mother and father. I didn’t hold a relationship with my father—I wasn’t really allowed to, growing up. My mother had her reasons, and I understand that.

But about four and a half years ago, I received a message from my half-brother saying that our dad was not doing well, and he’s being put into hospice. So I flew down to Texas to see him and say my final good-byes, and that was when we reconnected as siblings. And my sister pulled me to the side—it was just her and I in the room with our dad—and explained to me that she’d always wanted a relationship with me, and was really sad that that hadn’t happened. And she looked at me, and of course I’m crying my eyes out, and she said, “Can we start over, now? Will you be my sister?”

And ever since then, every single day, she and our brother have texted each other “Good morning”, every single day—I don’t think we've missed a day. We FaceTime pretty regularly. And we’re pretty close! We haven’t definitely where we, I guess left off. And I love and appreciate them so much. It’s like we were raised together.

And then a couple of years ago, I faced a major loss. My home flooded, and I also at the same time had ended a relationship that ended very badly. I had to go through a four-month battle to get a restraining order put in place. So I lost my home, I felt like I was hiding—or put into hiding. And here I am, a single mother with three children and nowhere to go. And I just stopped for a moment and thought about it.

I had spent so much panicked, in panic mode. And I was advised to… Sit, and face it, for a moment—by my therapist, who is brilliant! And in that time, I thought, “Okay, what do I want to do now?” Everything I knew, that I had, that was, is no longer. And I realized, I’m like, “This is actually the cleanest slate any adult could get!”

Yeah.

I have nothing! (Laughs) I closed my photography business. That was when this idea stemmed. I said, “You know what? Since I have nothing left to lose, and only everything to gain, I’m going to put myself out there. I want to start this Podcast. I want it be about mixed race, because we don’t have a space to talk about these things.” And so I called my half-siblings, and I asked them, “Are you in?” And they were like, “Absolutely! Let’s do this!” (Laughs)

So that was when the idea was born! Through a tragic, traumatic experience, but it’s been incredible. Absolutely incredible.

Yeah, that was about to be my next question, like when did you find the strength to… But I mean, you answered it.

Through loss!

Yeah! I mean, I can definitely relate. Hitting that really low point… Like, this is the time to make a change. That’s amazing. Yeah, I guess talking a little more about your coaching… How have you noticed like, changes within yourself, as you have…

Oh my goodness! (Laughs)

So you mentioned you have had a therapist, but then being on the other side of that, like in a more purposeful way—yeah, how have you noticed your own self change?

I… Wow, where do I start? I feel like I have gained more than ever in this realm, in coaching. I would say probably my biggest, lately… It’s a beautiful story. I’m honored to be in this position. I hosted a workshop at a women’s retreat, and it was a smaller group, and it was lovely. And my topic was connection and vulnerability, and how that can lead to your tribe. This was a group of women from all different walks of life, ages spanning from 20’s to 40’s. I had everybody do an exercise. My intention for them was to just write it down. But at this point in our day together, we were all really comfortable with one another.

And my question was, “Can you think of a time where you hid who you were to be accepted, because you thought you weren’t going to be?” And everybody wrote down… And I said, “If you would like to share—” because I knew a lot of this information was deeply personal. So “If you would like to share, you can share.” And almost everybody did, and it wasn’t superficial. It was deep-rooted, really painful things. And I cried, listening to a lot of this.

But my biggest takeaway from that experience was… I no longer look at people with the eyes of… I feel like a lot of us human beings have judgement. That is how we learn and grow, or learn about our environment and the people that we’re around. And I know at some point, especially my younger self  would question, like, “I wonder what her house looks like.” Just silly, superficial things. But now, every single person I meet, I question, “What have you overcome? What battle have you fought and overcome?” Or “What are you going through silently, that you’re not talking to anybody about?” Because every single one of us has a story. Every single one of us has been through something, to whatever degree. And I greet people—new people especially—with a lot more compassion and understanding than I used to. I’ve never been a mean, judgmental person, but that is now in the front of my mind, knowing that truthfully, we’ve all been through some hard things. It’s crazy! A lot more compassion for people.

Yeah. That’s beautiful. Do you do those kinds of workshops very often?

I am calling more into my life right now. Speaking events, as well. I was a speaker at a small event at a winery, this summer. And that was a phenomenal experience, also to be able to get up in a room of women, and talk about the things that are really important to me, and share my story and my experience, especially to further other people’s understandings of… We’ve all been through things. You can’t guess just by looking at somebody! Don’t judge, and think to yourself, “Wow. Her life must be perfect.” Cause nobody’s life is perfect.

Yeah, definitely. Wow. I guess a little more open-ended questions: What inspires you?

What inspires me? Oh my goodness! So I… Everything! (Laughs) A lot of things inspire me, but most of all, I am encouraged and built out of love. And anything that I do, I know will come back to me. So when I go about my day, I always start with love first. Also, being a mom of three children… Sometimes it gets a little tested throughout my day. But truthfully I firmly believe you get back what you put out.

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Full transcript available on wisenotwithered.com!

Season 4 - Episode 8 - Interview with Ms. Moe

"It’s ongoing. You’re constantly working, and you’re constantly building, and striving for excellence, when it comes to whatever you have a passion for. And I have a passion for my YouTube channel. I have a passion for singing. I have a passion for helping people, know what I mean? I really do. That is a passion of mine. And this is what I do. I could be walking down the street, and a regular Joe Schmo, Mary Lou will come up me, not knowing me from a can of paint! And they will pour their heart and soul out to me. And that has happened on numerous occasions. Know what I mean? Especially with people that I do know as well. A lot of people have come to me, and continue to come to me, in confidence, because they can appreciate my advice, or my counsel, or my positive energy, my encouragement, my being able to uplift. That… I don’t know. This is what I’ve been told from people, as well. I encourage. I uplift. I motivate. This is what I do. And some people say, 'Well that’s your ministry!' Okay. Okay. If that… I do believe that as well. I do have a gift."

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Welcome to the Wise Not Withered Podcast! We are in Season 4, Episode 8. This month's guest is Ms. Moe. She is a YouTube creator and personality; you can find her under @LetsTalkWithMoe on YouTube and Instagram, and more recently on YouTube she has leaned more toward reaction videos so it's called Ms. Moe Reacts. I found her on Instagram, and I liked her personality, she seemed very positive and entertaining! She talks about lots of different things: a little bit about her upbringing, the work she does outside of her YouTube channel, her children who are also content creators and business owners, and many things she has learned over her lifetime.

—

Cool! All right, so let’s just jump right in. What is your age?

My age is 57!

57, cool. And where did you grow up? And what other places have you called home throughout your life?

I grew up here in Springfield, Massachusetts. That’s where I’m born and raised. And I called New Haven, Connecticut home for a short time. I had my first son, my first child, when I was there. And so that was back in ’82. I had lived there… I would say… A good year. And a few months. And when my son was a few months old, I moved back here.

Okay. What brought you to Connecticut?

(Laughs) At the time… My husband.

Okay. And then you moved back… What brought you back?

Um… For better opportunities. Things weren’t going too well there. Of course, we were still together—we hadn’t gotten married yet. But yeah, better opportunity, hopefully. Just for a better life, a better start. I just had my son, so we were still trying to figure things out.

And what do you do for a living?

So… For an actual living! (Laughs) For an actual living, I work for a community health center here in Springfield, Massachusetts. It’s called the Caring Health Center, and I have been working there… Upcoming on October 6th, it will be 17 years! I’ve been there since ’06, so you do the math! I have worn many hats there, but I work for them. It’s a non-profit, federally funded, FQHC. And you know, I’ve just worn many hats there. Federally qualified health center. I am a medical professional.

Okay. What are some of those hats?

Okay. So here’s the rundown!

Yes!

The rundown is… When I first started there, I was front patient registration. When all the patients came in, I registered them, checked them in. After doing that for two years, I was approached and offered the position of assistant manager. And so I went to our second site—now we have three sites, but then it was only two sites. I went to the second site; I was the assistant manager. And then after that, hit a little bump in the road… After that, I took a break, you know, from managing. And then after the break, I went back to patient registration, and then I went back to being the assistant manager.

And after that, I went to front operations manager. And then… After that! (Laughs) I hit a couple of bumps in the road with my health, for the past I would say two, two and a half years… I had to take some time off—I had to be on medical leave, the year before last and last year. And so… When I came back to work, I was working with the call center. And then shortly after that, I went to pre-registration. So this was the year before last, when I came back to work. I started off in the pre-registration, did that… And then last year, went on medical leave again. Then came back, started in the call center, and after that, went right back into pre-registration. New patient appointments. That’s what I presently do. All around the mulberry bush, right? (Laughs)

Yeah, yeah, that’s indeed many hats! (Laughs) Yeah, how did you get started in that?

Oh. So… Long to the short, I was working for a stop and shop distribution warehouse, many years ago. Then all of a sudden they closed, they went out of business… Laid everybody off. And I’m talking about people who were working there for years. Laid everybody off, gave everybody a severance. I was so conditioned, gotta work, gotta get a job!

Years before, I kept saying I want to go back to school. I want to go back to school to get my GED, because I never graduated. So I got laid off from there, and it was really a tug of war going on, as far as… Okay, it’s the perfect opportunity to do it. I can go back to school, get my GED. I have no problem collecting unemployment, cause that was there for everybody who got laid off. Fine. So after making the decision to go back to school, get my GED, I did that. After taking the test, time was dwindling down, funds was dwindling down, the time I was on the unemployment. It was due to end.

And I ran into an employee—no longer works there—but I ran into an employee who was working there at the time, and I told her that I was looking for work. I ran into her and her husband at the time. And her husband, I went to cosmetology school with!

Oh wow!

Yeah, go figure. So long to the short, she said, “You know what, we’re looking for people. Go and apply, put me down as a reference.” And okay! So it was history from there on. Like I said I started with Caring Health Center in 2006.

Mhm. You mentioned cosmetology school?

Yeah! So… I went to cosmetology school, I graduated, no problem…

What all is that? I’m thinking hair and makeup… Is it more than that? I’m not really sure.

Well, I can tell you when I went—which was many moons ago now! It was hair, it was facials. It was… What do they call it, aesthetician? It was hair, facials, it was nails… But at that time, it was… You could do either hair, beauty stuff, or just nails. So, in the cosmetology part of it, they taught us how to do manicures, and pedicures—certain things you do and do not do with pedicures and manicures. Facials, and hair… We dibbled and dabbled with makeup, but nothing professional. So that’s what we did in cosmetology school.

I went, I graduated, had a lot of fun doing it. I worked part time, at the same time. When I graduated cosmetology school, I worked a little bit in a salon. Maybe two years. I worked in two different salons. It was… Nice, good, and fun. The only thing about, you know, doing hair and in that field, is it’s hard to build up your clientele. At least it was for me. I don’t think, looking back on everything now, I could have done a lot of things differently. But I didn’t know then. You know what I mean?

Yeah.

You have to put forth an effort to build up your clientele any way you can. And I didn’t have that know-how then.

Yeah. That sounds more like… I don’t know, business, advertising? That would be separate from your actual skill set that you’re using in the job, right.

Well yeah, because you know, that is your job. That is your business. You’re in charge of how much you’re building it up, or how much you’re not. And how much money you’re dishing out to rent that space, and to buy products, and all of that… It takes a lot when you’re first starting out.

Yeah, I did wonder. Your hair is beautiful!

(Laughs) Aw, thank you. Thank you so much. I can’t take credit this time.

Oh, no?

No, between my daughter and my stylist… I’m very well taken care of!

Okay! Awesome. Yeah so you mentioned you have a daughter, you have a son. Two kids—are there more?

No, I have three children. I have two sons, and a daughter. My daughter is the youngest. And I have two sons… My oldest son is 41, my middle—my youngest son is 34, and my daughter is 28.

Okay. Can you talk more about raising them, and what you’ve learned through your children? I know that’s probably… You could write a whole book about that, right? (Laughs)

That’s a big thing! Well… I would… First of all, I would say they are the best things that have ever happened to me. My first son, I had him when I was 16. My children are 6 and 7 years apart. And let’s be clear, I didn’t raise them by myself and on my own. I did have a husband. So we raised them together.

Some times were better than other times, as far as raising the children. We weren’t rich. We were poor. Two-income home. But they had everything they needed, you know what I mean? It’s not easy, it’s better with two people than one. You know what I mean? It’s not easy, but I wouldn’t trade it for anything. I wouldn’t change anything. Because if I changed anything about how they came about, how they were raised, I would not be where I am at this moment.

But… How do I put this? I didn’t have any… You know, issues, as far as raising my kids—how they turned out. It wasn’t an easy journey. I was a young mother. And learning as I went along, you know… And just trying to take one day at a time, always trying to make sure they had, you know what I mean? Always put myself on the back burner. Nevermind me, I’ll be okay. I will figure it out. I am grown. But as far as you kids? No. Whatever you guys needed, I would spend my last dime, making sure you guys, you know, had, all the time. I would definitely make sure that their hair was done. (Laughs) Yeah!

Right, yeah!

My boys always had the nice cut! I always made sure my daughter’s hair was always done. With my daughter, that was a struggle, because of the type of hair that she had. But I always made sure that they looked good, that they were clean! Their hair was done, their clothes were clean. They may not have had the name brands that everybody is so hung up on, and all of that… But they always had what they needed! We had good times—we have good times. Everybody’s an adults. Everybody comes to and fro… Yeah. I love my kids! I love my kids.

Yeah, so you said they’re 6 and 7 years apart. What are some things you learned as you became a new mom in those different phases of your life?

Oh, wow… What a question! To make sure… I can be hard and stern, but I’m always fair. I’m always fair. And I always try to make sure that, you know, there were no favorites. I always tried to make sure that all of my kids felt loved, and knew that they were loved, and tried to spend as much time with them as I possibly could, in the formative years… You know, going to games, going to school functions, going to parent-teacher conferences, going to open houses, all of that. That’s very important. I always tried to do that.

When you have kids, you never ever want to look around and wonder, “What happened?” When, or if your kids start acting a certain way, and start talking to you in a certain way, then you wonder, “Where is this coming from?” Or “Who do you think you’re talking to?” Then, they’ll tell you! You know what I mean? It could come out good, or it could come out bad. But it’s very important that you try to do that.

I don’t know, I mean… Those are some of the things I learned along the way. I always wanted to make sure my kids were happy! You know, happy and… I didn’t want them to have to want for anything. Even though we were poor—we didn’t have money like that. We were surviving, you know what I mean? We took one day at a time, one week at a time, one check at a time.

That’s one thing, I always wanted my kids to be happy. I didn’t want them to, you know, like they say, be in grown folks’ business, about the bills, about the money. I never wanted them to worry about that. So… I hope I answered your question!

Yeah! And I guess yeah, speaking of kids, and relationships with kids, what was or is your relationship with your own mom like?

Oh okay. So… My relationship with my mom is much better now than it was before.

Yeah, take us through the evolution!

Oh, God…

As much as you’re comfortable!

(Laughs) So… You know, me and my siblings, we all grew up in church. My mom has been the secretary of our church for over fifty years now.

Oh wow, okay.

We all grew up in church. I am the baby of six siblings. So we all grew up in church and whatnot… I left home at a real early age, hence me having my first child at 16. So when all of that was going on… It was an ordeal, to say the least. Things weren’t… The best, you know. Over the years, things… Got… They were not so good. Let’s just keep it at that. Things were not so good over the years. But things got better with time, you know? Fast forward to now, my relationship with my mom is 100% better than what it used to be.

Now don’t misunderstand me. I am not saying my relationship with my mom, when we did have rocky times… It was never, you know, like the type of cussing and screaming and arguing, slamming doors… Being disrespectful and rude. It was never, ever that. I just want to be clear about that. I never, ever disrespected my mom in that type of way, in that manner.

Now, we are excellent, we’re much closer. We’re in a much better place now.

Nice! Did that happen over time? Or do you remember a turning point?

It happened over time. I can’t give a specific time frame of when it happened. It’s just one of those things that happens organically. You don’t really, like, oh okay, yes, I remember it was right then! No. It just happens! You go through life, you know what I mean? You’re living. So… It just happened.

Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. Let’s see, switching gears a little bit! What are some of your hobbies or leisure activities?

Ooh! (Laughs) So let’s see. Okay! So, I love to sing. I can sing! Not to toot my own horn or anything…

Please, toot your own horn!

I can sing, I love to sing. I’ve been singing ever since I was a little girl. I grew up in church singing. I got my singing ability from my dad, and my mom—collectively. I love to sing! In my spare time, I have done weddings, I have done funerals. Occasions like that. And of course, I have my own YouTube channel.

That was the next question! (Laughs) But yeah, please continue.

I have my own YouTube channel. It started off as being “Let’s Talk With Moe”. That was the beginning of it. That used to be the title of it. But now, it’s Ms. Moe Reacts. (LINK) And I’m on YouTube. And so I’ve been doing YouTube for some years now! That’s like, my main hobby that I do. My main thing that I do in my spare time. As soon as I’m done Monday-Friday working my 8:30-3:30 job, I try to dive into that. On the weekends and anytime I can through the week. That is my outlet, know what I mean? That is my go-to.

So I sing, I have my own YouTube channel. I used to do hair in my spare time, but I don’t really do that anymore, you know? I can do hair, I just don’t. There comes a time… I still love it, but not like that.

Of course, I love to shop!! Who doesn’t like to shop!? And you know, I try to spend time with my kids. As much as I can! They’re all grown. The oldest lives in Atlanta—he’s married. Couple of grandkids… My youngest son and my daughter live with me. My youngest son has a son, and my daughter doesn’t have any children.

That’s really about it. I just really, really love doing my YouTube channel! I really love it.

—

Full transcript can be found on wisenotwithered.com!

Season 4 - Episode 7 - Interview with Natalie Griffith Robichaux

I really feel like our inner work, doing our inner work is the way to change the world and how we have an impact on the outer world. And I so, so deeply believe and know in my heart that embodiment is the way to freedom, and connection, and joy… And all of those things that we long for. So now, I’m moving into building a coaching business, but also writing a book. I feel like some of it is gonna be exorcised from me in the form of public speaking, or teaching, or possibly performance… That’s the way I’m going to disseminate the experience to other people. So that is in the works! And I’m still constantly working on—and this has a place in all of these things that I’m mentioning—I’m still working on a solo performance piece that I have been working on for years. I’m performed it along the way in its different iterations at different places. It’s called Bicycle Face. In my body and heart and mind, it’s going to end up being in an anthology of sorts with other women and folks who identify as women.

That’s a thread that’s through all of this too, and I don’t know how all of these things are coming together, but I tell you what! At this time in my life, when I’m rounding the corner to 50—comin’ in hot on 50—it feels like all of these things are being braided together in this sort of glowing… Golden braid.

—

Thanks for joining us on the podcast! So… Natalie Griffith Robichaux.

Yes.

Cool. Got it. Yay. So what is your age?

I am 49. Gonna be 50 in January!

Amazing. When’s your birthday?

January 18th!

Okay cool! That’s a little less than a month after mine! Hehe.

Ah, all right!

Are you a Capricorn?

I am a Capricorn. I’m very much a Capricorn.

Yeah? Are you into astrology?

Totally! I have been my whole life. It just makes sense to me. It always has.

I’m a Capricorn too! What about the Capricorn sign do you resonate with? Like what comes to mind when you think, “I’m a Capricorn!”

I’m fiercely loyal. Can be very… Systems-oriented. Like I kinda get into the organizational, ambition behind organization, making systems work… I’m super passionate, I’m grounded. I can be a little… Jealous… At times? Stubborn! What else… I mean those are the things that come off the top of my head. I have three, including myself, Capricorns in my house. My daughter’s a Capricorn, and my husband’s a Capricorn. And then my son is a Virgo. So, very different. He’s living with three Capricorns in the same building, so it gets interesting!

I’m just picturing all the rams butting heads. Is it like that? (Laughs)

Sure! (Laughs) There’s some of that. But I think we’re all very passionate in our own ways. Yeah.

Cool! Yeah. So you mentioned you’re a mother. What other roles do you currently carry? Like, how do you refer to yourself, and what do others refer to you as?

I’m an artist, a performing artist, a teacher, a coach, a guide… I’ve been shifting the sort of roles and names as I’ve gotten older. I’ve become more comfortable with taking up roles that I would’ve been more timid about taking up before, when I was younger. I like to refer to myself as a witch, in the way that… I read this definition of a witch that an artist made, I don’t remember who said this. Maybe we could find it. But it was in the New York Times, this artist that said, “A witch is a woman with unconstrained relationship to her power.”

Ooooooh.

And so I was like, “I wanna be a witch! So I’m gonna start saying, ‘I’m a witch.’ I’m gonna invite that in.” So I guess “witch” would be a role that I would like to embody, that I try to embody. Definitely mother, friend, partner, sister, daughter—those are all very important to me.

And you mentioned roles that you are becoming more comfortable with now as you’re becoming older. Is that specifically the witch one, or are there others?

The witch one, and some friends of mine… A particular friend of mine, who I consider a spiritual guide in my life, has been inviting me to entertain the idea of “shaman” or “shepherd” or… I’ve been a mentor already, and am a mentor to several young artists, young women. Did that quite a bit and enjoyed that part of my academic career—which is now over. I moved out of academia. So I guess witch, mentor, shaman, guide, shepherd.

Okay. And yeah, you mentioned you’re an artist. What all does that entail for you? What kind of art?

It entails a lot, Juliana! I enjoy making things. I called myself a maker for a long time, cause I really enjoy making things. I love sewing. Years ago I had a handmade handbag line, when I lived in New York City, called Brooklyn Cowgirl, that I did for several years. I like making patterns for things, like sewing patterns. I paint! I also dabbled in a little bit of sculpture. And I’m a performing artist! I’ve been an actor and a dancer basically my whole life. That would be where my education is, in acting, dancing, movement, performing, and directing. Intimacy choreography for the stage, and all sorts of things.

Intimacy choreography?

Yeah. Have you heard about this?

Mm-mm.

You know, it’s been a few years now that that’s come into play. It’s essentially somebody there to help you choreograph intimate moments, or sexual moments, or moments of violence that are of an intimate nature—for the stage.

Oh wow.

So we bring in all kinds of tools to explain and set up consent culture in the rehearsal room, and on the stage, with everybody involved in the production. And we choreograph like it’s a dance—the actual movements of an intimate scene. So it’s not just like, “Oh uh, roll around on the bed and kiss each other twice, and let’s see what happens!” You know, you choreograph it like it’s a dance movement, so that you can count on what’s gonna happen—all the people involved can count on what’s gonna happen, and you can repeat it. And then you are somebody who maintains, helps the actors and stage management maintain that choreography throughout the run.

And sometimes the artists are scared that it’s gonna limit things and take the spontaneity, in-the-moment creativity out of a moment that’s about the human condition and about connecting in an intimate way. Making an imagined circumstance real. But I’ve found that the choreography and the consent culture guidelines actually give some guard rails, so that then you can play jazz when you’re up there—it really just opens things up in a huge way.

Interesting! Yeah, I’ve never heard about that.

That study that I did, and that practice of choreographing several things for the stage, and working with theater groups and things like that—really informs the coaching and therapeutic work that I do. It feels like all of these different elements come in together to… Now as I turn the corner to turning 50, it feels like all of these different areas of study and experience are joining together finally, in a way that I haven’t felt before.

I’ve always struggled with doing too many things. Maybe that’s something you can relate to—I know you’re multi-faceted.

Yeah.

Yeah, so that in the past has felt like a struggle, and like I’m not doing anything completely… How can I really commit to something. This story, that I need to commit to one thing. Take that one thing all the way—that sort of thing. But now, it really feels like those seemingly disparate things have been really a gift, many gifts, that are now weaving together.

Wow! Amazing. I really resonate with what you said, so many different things. That’s really cool! Wow. Oh my gosh, there’s so many different directions we could go in. How about… Can you talk about your performing arts, how that has shifted? Maybe like how did you first get into it? I mean, I’m sure you always dancing as a kid. But like, how did that evolve? You’re a teacher, now you do coaching. Can you talk about it from like a dancing lens, and how that’s shifted, changed, and evolved in your lifetime?

Yes, yes! Well, dancing is where I started. And the way that I feel it is that it was always through my body, I was really drawn to and excited by and thrilled by expressing myself through my whole body. And that was something that came really easily to me, and it felt really powerful and impactful. It felt like a way that I could be impactful on an audience, or you know, using my expression through my body. And I maybe wasn’t the most technically disciplined, or you know, my technical abilities were not always really high, just because of my sheer body shape. I don’t know what you know about ballet or any sort of dance, but they can be very rigid, and very prescribed. You know, like a certain body type is a dancer, and there were certain things that my body just wouldn’t do. Like there was a limit, even at a very young age, just because of anatomy.

But I was always, always, always drawn to expressing myself with my body, and that led me to acting. I found that when I was dancing as a preteen and a teenager, I wanted to speak on stage. I wanted to see what other ways I could do that, those sorts of things. I was also always really fascinated with the human condition, psychology… Feelings! Why we have them! What happens in relationships? All of those things—it’s been an area of interest for me for sure. So I went into acting with a BFA undergrad program. And then went directly from there into a graduate acting program, at UCSD in San Diego. That was in the late 90’s—the 1900’s, as my kids say. (Laughs) They’re like “Mom, that movie is from the 1900’s, and I’m like ‘Yes, so am I. So am I. I am also from the 1900’s.’” That was in the late 90’s.

In a graduate acting program, your classes are acting, obviously, but there’s also movement, and yoga, and body awareness, and vocal training, which is also body awareness-related, and breath-related, and singing and speech. And then how all of these things work together to produce sound! You know, all of that stuff.

So I did that training. Loved it. Loved being in that training. And again, I was always an actor, and am still an actor, who first approaches it through the body. I taught a little bit in graduate school—like you are doing, right—as part of my graduate program. And then went to New York City, started working in theater: regional theater, Broadway, Off-Broadway, that sort of thing, in New York. I didn’t do a lot of teaching while I was doing that. I was really trying to get jobs as an actor, and honing my retail sales skills, and my waiting tables skills, which I did for many years. (Laughs) Which have actually brought many, many skills that I still use today!

And then I found myself wanting… And this was always kind of in the background when I was doing my graduate studies and when I was performing in theater productions and that sort of thing. I found myself wanting some sort of outlet to give back, and I knew that my experience in getting to know my body and using my imagination through movement was such a therapeutic experience for me, that I wanted to share that with other people. And I couldn’t quite figure out how to do that.

And while I was in New York… I don’t even remember where I first heard the term “drama therapy”, but when I heard it, I was like “Oh, what? What??” And it was, you know, theater processes used for therapeutic purposes, right. And I was like, “Oh my god, that would be so great!” Immediately thrilled about it! And at that time, there were only two programs in the country. One at NYU, and one at University of San Francisco. And I applied to the one at NYU—it was another masters program. I was a, you know, struggling, starving actor who was working periodically but not making a lot of money, just making ends meet, and had no health care for a little while. Then would have health care through the actor’s union, then I would not have it. Thank god for Planned Parenthood in Manhattan in the early 2000’s. They saved my life on several occasions, for just basic female health care. I digress—it is part of the story.

I interviewed for the program at NYU, and part of the interview process was they pulled out fifty applicants from their scores of applicants for their drama therapy program, and they all came to NYU for a weekend. And we went through all of these drama therapy exercises as a group, as a sort of like interview process where they would decide who would be M.A. candidates, who would become part of the program. So I got a real taste of what it was. And I was so thrilled by it, Juliana. I just took to it immediately. It made sense in my body. I was doing things with these other people who were interested in it as well, and it was working therapeutically for us in that weekend, even in that short period of time. I was just so excited by it. I got accepted to the program, and then found out the cost of the program. (Laughs) And was not able to do it.

And that felt like a derailment. Like oh… Okay… But knew that I was still interested in it. So I got a few books that were written at the time about it, and started reading as much as I could. At that time, I moved with my then-boyfriend, who then became my husband, who I’m still married to now. We moved from New York to Los Angeles. He’s an actor as well, and as acting teacher. And we moved to LA, and at that time in my acting work, I realized that I was 33, and… The parts that I was going up for in theater were getting less and less and less. There seemed to be an age gap in the parts that were there. It was like… 30 to 60, it was like there wasn’t a lot there.

Hm.

And, I had reached a point where… I remember being in my agent’s office in New York City. We were looking at something called the break downs, where they send out for auditions… They send out like what the characters are and actors they’re looking for. So they’ll say like… Woman, in her 20’s. The character is flamboyant, and whatever. They’ll tell the agents what kind of actors they’re looking for for the parts. And he read a break down out to me, and it was for something like Cincinnati Playhouse, which was a regional theater, a great theater that would audition in New York and would be a great job to have. I don’t remember if it was actually Cincinnati Playhouse, but it was one of those regionals.

And it said next to the part that I would be up for, it said “Stars Only”. And that was during the time when reality TV was coming up, and lots of reality stars were starting to do theater, and bring in people for audiences, and theaters were looking for people who had some star power. That was not something I had. I was 33, and I felt like I was coming into a desert zone of parts. And so when I moved to Los Angeles, I left my agency, and I was like, “I’m done. If acting is breaking up with me, I’m gonna break up with it before it gets a chance to break up with me.” (Laughs) So I’m like nah, not gonna do that anymore. Gonna do something else.

So in LA, I was really floundering, and trying to find what I was gonna do with this Masters degree in acting, and experience in theater… And I didn’t know. And I found a drama therapy institute in Los Angeles, where I could take some classes. It wasn’t a degree program, but I could take classes. So I started some classes there. My husband and I decided to start an acting company, or an acting school, in Los Angeles. He was the main teacher, and then I would supplement some things sometimes. So I started teaching a little bit there.

And then it went on from there. We moved to Austin, Texas, after we had been in Los Angeles for about four years. We opened an acting studio in Austin, Texas, had that for several years. I had two kids during that time, who are my greatest spiritual teachers. And from there, we decided to move and take up academic appointments at Penn State University. They were offering my husband a job there—he had been teaching in universities in Austin, and they offered him a job, and they offered me a job as well. So that’s how I got into academia. And when I started at Penn State, I was really interested in the imagination, and the imagination being the gateway to all progress and growth. And particularly something a teacher called Movement Imagination, which is… It’s not a visualization exercise. The best way I can describe it is that your energetic body is moving. And you use it for creative purposes.

So I was super, super interested in studying that. That led me Michael Chekhov work, which is an actor training theory and program, that is about the energetic body and expanding creative abilities through the body. And I was training to teach acting, but as the years went along and I got more attuned with Michael Chekhov and my energetic body and all of the doors in my creative abilities started to blow open because of this work… I started noticing my students were having positive therapeutic results from an acting class.

Now, you don’t ever want to make an acting class a therapy session. That would be unethical. But I was noticing that it was a by-product of the work that was really powerful, and I was really interested in that.

Do you want me to keep going?

Yeah!

That was… Very long-winded answers.

No, no, I love this! Yeah, please keep going!

(Full transcription of interview can be found on wisenotwithered.com)

Season 4 - Episode 6 - Interview with Eden Fieldstone

Welcome to another episode of the Wise Not Withered podcast! We are in Season 4, Episode 6. This month's guest was Eden Fieldstone, whom I met at a retreat where I met quite a few people who have been and will be featured on this podcast! Eden is multi-faceted, as she will go into, with two very different careers that she holds simultaneously. She talked a lot about her relationship with her own children, and I really appreciated her warmth, humor, and rawness in some of the topics she talked about.

—

All right! So is it Eden Fieldstone?

Mhm.

Okay. Thank you for joining us on the Wise Not Withered Podcast! What is your age?

49.

49, excellent. That’s my dad’s favorite number! Where did you grow up? And where do you live now?

I grew up in Toronto, and I still live in Toronto.

Okay. Have you lived there your whole life?

Lived? Yeah… Pretty much.

Nice. Have you visited other places too?

Oh yeah. Of course, of course. I went to Brazil three times. I’ve been to Egypt. Yeah. Obviously, the United States.

Brazil—why three times?

Oh, cause I have friends down there. And it’s my favorite country. I love the culture. I feel very at home there. I feel more at home there than here.

Oh, why’s that?

People are so… Emotional! (Laughs) They’re very free with their emotions, they’re very free with their emotions, they’re very friendly, they’re very warm. They’re just… I feel like they’re very natural. Like there isn’t… How to explain it. Like they’re just very affectionate, warm people. We’re not here. Yeah.

Okay, interesting. When was the first time you went to Brazil?

2011?

And every time just to visit friends?

Yeah. But I was sheltered there. I wouldn’t go there by myself. I generally don’t… Generally, when I travel, I’m visiting someone I know. I like being on the inside. I don’t like being a tourist.

Makes sense.

You know what I mean? So I’m also taken care of—I don’t worry about getting robbed. Brazilian people are generally not coming around you with those intentions. So yeah, that’s basically how I like to travel. My friend lives in Bermuda, and I might go visit her. But if I didn’t have a friend in Bermuda, I wouldn’t go, necessarily. I like to travel where I know somebody, and I’m visiting.

Have you been a tourist somewhere?

Yeah! For sure, Cuba… I don’t like all-inclusive resorts. And I went when I was really young—I was 20. I went to Italy by myself. And I felt so isolated! Cause I couldn’t speak the language. It was different, culturally. I had a very hard time communicating. And I think that maybe changed how I travel.

Oh, okay. So that was a turning point in the way you approach traveling.

Yeah. It was very isolating. I felt isolated.

Yeah, that makes sense. Okay, so switching gears a little bit, what is or was your relationship with your mother like?

Oh my god… Very complicated. My mother well, is—she’s still alive… But, younger… She wasn’t, in my opinion, equipped to be a mother. I don’t think she wanted to be a mother. There’s a lack of nurturing… So… It took me maybe until I was a mother, for me to let go of needing her to be a mother to me.

Hm.

Yeah. I perceive her more like my biological mother. I interact with her, but it’s always… I don’t go to her for emotional support, or like typical things you go to your mother for. I don’t do that with her. I’m glad I have a daughter. I feel that heals me a lot, that I can have the relationship I craved with my mother. I have it with my daughter.

Yeah, that was gonna be the next question, how did it affect your relationship with your children? So…

That I don’t do what she does. I don’t… I’m there for them, emotionally. Yeah.

Yeah. Interesting. What do you do for a living?

Two things! Right now, I’m a professor of Critical Thinking, under the umbrella of English. And I’ve been a belly dancer for twenty-five years. Yeah!

How did you get into the teaching first, and then the dancing?

The teaching came from the belly dancing.

Oh, really!

Cause… Yeah. I never set out to teach. Belly dance, that was my career. And then I danced so much that I injured myself. A few times. And it debilitated me. Cause it was my only source of income, so I would over-dance. And I had to do something else, something that wasn’t with my body. So I took this course, teaching English as a second language. And I kind of fell into all of this… I don’t teach that anymore. I teach like, critical thinking, literature, stuff like that. Yeah!

Yeah, very different things! How do you, I guess balance your identities? And like… I remember at the retreat, you said some of you students found your belly dancing page?

Yeah, yeah, yeah! I just deal with it! They’re both parts of me. I’m really academic. And I’m really artistic. Like I’m both. I would feel unbalanced if I weren’t involved in one of them.

Interesting. And I’m curious how that affects like, your mothering as well. Like, do your children… You have a daughter. Do you have other kids as well?

I have a daughter and a son.

Okay. How old are they?

My daughter is 7, my son is 10.

And do you talk to them about your belly dancing, or your teaching?

Yeah! All the time.

What is that like?

It’s normal to them. They come watch me dance. They’ve come to my work, teaching. They haven’t watched me teach. But they… It’s just normal. They hate that I’m on the computer a lot—that’s where I have to mark and everything… But yeah. It’s just normal for them.

Yeah, okay. Interesting. And what brings you the most joy on a daily basis?

I think it’s feeling connected to other people. Good conversation… Yeah. Very simple! Hugging my kids… Watching their free spirits. Being outside in nature.

How are your kids similar to you? And how are they different from you?

Well it’s funny… With my son, on an aesthetic level, I can pick apart every feature of who he looks like, of which family member. My kids have my hair color, both of them, and they have my jaw line. And my smile. And he has my sensitivity, and he’s definitely an empath. And he’s got that about me… My daughter has a rebellious side to her, which… She doesn’t like rules. Very much like me—when I was fifteen. She’s very feisty! (Laughs)

So yeah, that’s how they’re like me! They’re both very affectionate. Yeah.

Is that also like you?

Yeah, I’m very affectionate with them, so I guess they kind of picked it up from me. (Laughs)

Nice! What do you do to unwind or recharge after a long day, or long week?

That’s very hard for me to do. I have to physically leave my house. I mean, I love my children, but I cannot recharge or unwind around them. I have to physically remove myself from my house. Sometimes it’s going for a drive, sometimes… I don’t get many opportunities to do that. But whatever I’m doing, it has to be away from the home. Too many responsibilities, too many energies pulling on me in there… Yeah, definitely… Seeing a friend or something like that. Just has to be, unfortunately… I can’t unwind around my children.

Yeah, that makes sense.

Yeah, yeah…

Aside from work and family obligations, what other hobbies and interests do you have?

I like reading novels. Again, I just like being in nature. I don’t know, belly dancing isn’t a hobby, but it’s something I do enjoy. I like exercising. Those kinds of things.

So you said you started your career in belly dancing. Did you start it just as a hobby and then it became a career?

Yeah.

What was that transition like? At what point did you think, “Oh, I can do this as a career!”?

Well I took classes for like three years. Then I started doing amateur shows in groups. Then I was in a dance company. And then I just… Went out to places that hire belly dancers. And I just got hired! That was it! It was very simple. It was like, the easiest job ever. It’s the best job. I get paid to dance. I really couldn’t ask for anything better. Yeah. So.

Yeah, and what kind of gigs do you do? Do you dance at clubs? Or solo shows? Group stuff?

Everything. But I don’t do—sorry for my yawning—I don’t do stags. I don’t do anything that’s all men. Because then they get other ideas. But no, weddings, anniversaries, baby showers—you name it. Birthday parties. Anything that’s celebratory. Yeah. That’s what I do. As long as it’s not a stag kind of thing.

Stag? Like S-T-A-G? And that means all men?

And it’s usually men who… Like for a guy who’s getting married, and he’s gonna have his one last hurrah.

Oh! Like a bachelor party!

They often hire strippers and stuff like that. I don’t go to things like that. They have a… Generally, they have a different expectation. I don’t do that kind of dancing!

Yeah, makes sense! Okay. What has been one of the biggest challenges that you’ve faced and overcome?

Giving birth.

Yeah.

I had both of my children naturally, with no drugs. My son was 44 hours. And after 30 hours, I only dilated one centimeter. I had a doula, I had my husband. It was hard! It was the hardest thing I’ve ever done in my life. It was the hardest thing I’ve ever done in my life! I could not have done it without all that support around me. But I feel like… I’m not disparaging women who haven’t had natural childbirth at all. But for me, it was a rite of passage. It made me stronger. It was the hardest thing I’ve ever done. I wanted to crawl out of my body. It was excruciating. I could feel my hip bones separating.

Oof.

I was shaking… I was in shock for a week after I gave birth to my son. Yeah, it was physically, mentally… It was exhausting. It hurt, so much. And I couldn’t escape it. It was the hardest thing I’ve ever done! (Laughs) There was like… I didn’t feel like there was a light at the end of the tunnel. It felt like I was being tortured for 44 hours. And then finally, he came. Yeah, that was the hardest thing… To not go to the hospital and not get an epidural. That was the hardest thing I’ve ever done.

Yeah. Why did you choose to not do that?

Because… When you’re paralyzed. You’re completely disconnected. Your body… They tell you when to push in the hospital. That’s not the way… Your body pushes when… There’s no control. Your body just will push. There’s no mental… There’s nothing that you can control when you’re in a natural state of giving birth. Your body completely takes over. So… It’s just healthier. It’s everything. You’re disconnected. You’re completely disconnected. It’s like nothing is going on. But it’s the biggest thing going on. And then you have nurses telling you to push. How does the nurse know when my body wants to push? She’s not in my body. Yeah… I was afraid I was going to blow my back. Honestly, I just didn’t want anything to do with it. At the time, I was like, “Give me the epidural…” It was brutal. But my doula and my husband were not letting that happen. And I appreciate it now, for sure. Yeah.

And then three years later you gave birth to your daughter?

Yeah.

And was that a similar experience?

No. I gave birth to her by myself, in my house. Cause the midwife didn’t show up… So that was different.

Wow…!

Yeah, she slept through the pager. So I called 9-1-1, and she was like half out of me when 9-1-1 answered, and then the fire department was in my room. The paramedics were in my room… It was crazy. The midwife wasn’t there.

Wow.

My daughter was fine. It was quite something. Yeah. But she came twice as fast as my son, and it was half the pain. And I knew what I was doing. So I just was like, “I’m done with this. I hate being pregnant.” And I just gave birth to her. And that was it! I was done with it. I was like, “I’ve had it!” Finished! Yeah.

Wow… You mentioned like, a mental challenge. So it wasn’t as much of that with your daughter.

No. Not at all.

Okay. Interesting.

I think the first… Well for me, I only have two, so I can’t… But it’s understood that the first is the hardest, and then it gets easier, and easier… Yeah.

Yeah. Interesting… I’m just thinking about what it must have been like for my mom…

It’s hard. But… You know, it really strengthens you as a person. Just having to go through that, and coming out the other side. It’s definitely a rite of passage, for sure.

Yeah. And then how about just, raising your kids? What has been challenging about… Now that they are their own, little person? (Laughs)

Sleep deprivation. As you can see, I’m yawing all the time… Trying to manage work and children. You know, their needs. It’s always their needs. Always about them. Which is fine, cause that’s the way it’s supposed to be. Just… Kind of like… For me, cause I put so much into them… It’s hard to give to myself. I don’t have the time. I don’t have the time. But it’s important.

My challenge as a mother has been, how do I nurture them, and give them the opportunities to fulfill whatever dreams that they have? And then, carve out the same space for myself. Which, I still… It hasn’t happened. I’m trying to write a novel. I can’t write the thing. Because between work and my kids, I have no time. Yeah. So it’s definitely a challenge. And I think the less economic means you have, the harder it is.

Right.

I don’t have someone coming to my house. No one’s coming to my house, cleaning my house, cooking my meals for me… So there’s a lot of domestic work that I have to do. So there isn’t free time for myself. And it’s not good. I don’t know how to navigate around it.

Yeah… How did you find BWA?

Just some Facebook ad!

What drew you to it?

Just what Leslie was talking about, how your outer world is a reflection of your inner world… And how talk therapy doesn’t change your inner drive, I guess? That’s not the right word, but I can’t remember her phrasing, to be honest. But it was that kind of idea that drew me to it. Yeah.

Has it changed your life, do you think?

Changed my life? No. I wouldn’t say it’s changed my life. I think that I am more grounded. I don’t spin out, to the extent that I used to. So I mean, there’s a change. But it hasn’t changed my whole life. Does that make sense?

Yeah, yeah. It’s not like a… Super huge kind of ground-breaking…

Yeah, I just feel more grounded. I feel like if things don’t go the way I want it or expect it, or it hurts, or whatever… I kind of just… Well, maybe this is for the best, and I lean into it. Embrace things more. I have a little more faith… That the universe is here to help. I don’t know. Do you know what I mean? There’s more of a groundedness.

Mhm.

Yeah, I check my mind stories a lot.

Yeah.

I don’t let myself go… I try to not let myself get sucked… I recognize when I’m getting sucked into someone’s energy. And I can pull away… Yeah.

Yeah, you mentioned the spinning out. Is that what you meant? Getting sucked into things…

Yeah, or just like… You know, just spinning out, like, “Oh the future… And this… And that…” That kind of stuff.

Mhm. Like, being trapped in that uncertainty versus the trust that you were talking about, that things will…

Yeah. Exactly.

Yeah. Makes sense… So how do you define success?

Self-fulfillment. I don’t define it by money. No, I never have. Success is something you achieve, I guess… So to achieve, or… It could be anything. I was actually thinking of the success of my uncle—one of my uncles. I was thinking that he’s so different with his kids than the way he was raised. And I see how my cousins are really grounded people. And I was like, you know, that’s success. Like, he changed the direction of some intergenerational… I don’t know if I would say trauma necessarily, but ways of relating to people. Yeah, he changed the direction with his kids. And… He’s got a great job, and he’s got lots of money and whatever, but that’s—to me—not the success part. It’s how he parents. Yeah.

Do you consider him a mentor? Like do you look up to him?

A little bit, yeah. A little bit… We’re not that close. I think that… I think spiritually, if one fulfills whatever purpose they’re here to do, that’s success. Overcoming something that’s difficult—that’s success. It’s not monetary. I know in our culture, it’s very materialistic. But to me, success is not about that.

Yeah, that makes sense. Who are some of your mentors, or people that you’ve looked up to?

I look up to Madonna! I really like her! I do! I think she’s such a trailblazer, and that she’s still going at 64. I like that about her. I look up to… Oh god, I’m just so tired right now. So many people. Basically, any… Okay. There’s this astronaut or mathematician in NASA, this black woman in the 50’s, and she was very instrumental. Katherine Johnson. You know, people who go against the status quo… Or surprise you. Or they do the unexpected, I guess, in a positive way. Yeah. So… I’m not articulating myself very well. (Laughs)

It’s okay. Yeah. What’s something you’ve learned about yourself, in the last few months to a year?

Hoh… I’m very, very sensitive. And I come across as… Confident. Which is true. But I’m still very sensitive. Yeah.

And you just realized that about yourself recently?

No, it’s not that I just realized. I don’t know what I JUST realized about myself… What I JUST realized… That I am perimenopausal. There you go! I just realized that! (Laughs)

Nice! (Laughs)

All right. I skipped my period for fifty days. And I was freaking out. I was like, totally going crazy. Then it came. And then it came regularly again. Yeah. What else… That I… I don’t know. There’s nothing I JUST realized about myself, to be honest.

Okay, no problem.

Nothing new. There’s nothing new. Maybe a continuation, but nothing new.

How do you feel about menopause? Does it freak you out?

Yeah. I’m gonna be honest, it does.

If you don’t mind sharing, what about it scares you?

Um… That… The loss of being fertile… Bothers me. The coming in to the end of my life. I know menopause is not—I’m only 49. But it’s a whole different… Yeah. I guess aging. All those hormonal, major changes. I… When I was especially a bit younger, when I would ovulate, I would feel this like, surge of energy. And I felt like, this power, like I could do whatever I want. I don’t know, it was like I was on a high or something. So I don’t know what menopause is gonna feel like, cause I’m not on menopause, right… Yeah. I guess I will just embrace it when it comes, but… I don’t know. Yeah.

I think what I discovered about myself is that I don’t like change, actually. I don’t like change. It’s something I need to work on. But menopause is… It’s a little scary for me. Yeah.

Yeah, it’s definitely not something we talk about as a culture. Did your mom ever talk to you about her experience?

Yeah! I talk to her about it all the time!

Oh! Oh, you do? Okay!

Mhm! It’s not pleasant, what she tells me. I don’t know if I want to repeat it, but… The analogies are stark! So… Yeah! Yeah… I’m not the best one to talk to about menopause, because I’m not in it, but… I have a fear of it.

Yeah, makes sense.

Yeah, I don’t know what else to say about it.

Yeah, no problem. What’s something you’re looking forward to?

I guess, doing more stuff with my kids. Maybe traveling a bit. Yeah, traveling…

Where’s a destination?

I want to see the Northern Lights, in Canada. I would really like to see them.

Yeah!

I haven’t planned it, but it’s something that I would like to see.

And where is that visible? Where can you do that?

I think the Northwest Territories. It’s far.

It is pretty far from where you are?

Absolutely. I’m in a city. A massive city. Toronto is a massive, metropolitan, crazy city. The Northern Lights, I think they’re in the Northwest Territories.

Okay. Do you travel with your kids? Are they of traveling age yet?

Oh yeah, I travel with them. I went without them to Brazil. And that was very hard for me. But I’ll tell you, after three days, though, I was fine! I didn’t have to… I had a break. It was amazing, to just… Live in my day without having to take care of somebody. I’m not disparaging being a mother or anything, but it’s very hard to always be taking… You’re always having to take care of someone else. Always. Always. Every decision you make is like… Based on, how is this going to affect my kid? Can I do this? Can I not do this? Blah, blah, blah. I mean I do, in my daily life… It’s rare, but I do go out, and I come back and 4 o’clock in the morning. I swear to God I do. I go out and I have a good time. I don’t care. Cause I feel like that’s really important. I’m not about staying home all the time. No, I probably go out once a week. Late. (Laughs)

I go to live music, I hang out with my friends. I see my friends a lot. I make a point of it. Yeah. I’m not gonna just wither away in my house. It’s not happening.

Yeah, that’s great!! I feel like that’s probably good for your kids too!

They don’t like when I’m gone! They get upset. “Where are you going?” I’m like, “You’re going to bed. What does it matter? I’ll be here when you wake up. Like, it doesn’t matter.” “No, Mommy, where are you going?” They think my personal life, like everything about me, is their business. Yeah. Like my son will look over my shoulder and read my text messages.

Ohh…!

Oh yeah! All the time… They think that the way they are my business, that I am their business. And it’s not that way. They can’t understand it. There are different roles. I don’t want to say it’s power differential, but it really is! But, for their benefit! You know? They don’t understand that I’m a full grown adult, where they can’t! (Laughs)

Yeah. I love that. (Laughs) So interesting. Yeah. Well, is there anything else you wanted to talk about that I didn’t ask?

No, not really! I just… For me, as I’m getting older, as the decades go on, I feel that I’m more open-minded, and I’m not as judgmental. I can see different perspectives. I’m calmer. So those are nice things! I’m not as fired up about everything that I used to be. Yeah. So that’s nice! (Laughs)

Yeah, just mellowed out a little bit.

Yeah, I’ve mellowed out a lot. Totally. Yeah.

Yeah! Well thank you so much for joining us!

Thank you!

Season 4 - Episode 5 - Interview with Coco Mitchell

Welcome to the Wise Not Withered Podcast! This is Season 4, and we are at Episode 5. So this month's guest was Coco Mitchell, who is a model! She has been in the industry for many, many years, and I found her on Instagram! I honestly can't remember what I was even searching for, but I found it really inspiring that there was an older women—there are still many older women who are continuing to model, and are really in it still.

I'm gonna let her tell her own story. I honestly did not do a lot of research before contacting her, which she actually called me out on, which I was appreciative of. She is super, super accomplished. She has been all over the world, working with some of the really big names in fashion, which I don't really know much about, but I definitely learned a lot from her. She just really has such an incredible story. Coco Mitchell is just so warm, and friendly. She's so brave and humble, and she's truly just such a truth-teller. My admiration for her grew with everything she shared. So I hope you feel just as inspired as I was, talking to Coco Mitchell, as you listen to her tell her really amazing story.

All right, is it Coco Mitchell? Am I saying your name right?

Yes.

All right, so let’s just get right into it. Thank you so much for joining us on the Wise Not Withered Podcast. What is your age?

Thank you for having me, and I would rather not share my age.

Okay.

I mean, during the course of this conversation, you will probably figure it out, but in the meantime, it’s not something that I do readily. And the reason is…

Yeah.

Because I’m still IN the fashion business. And if I share my age, with that comes a price tag.

Oh…

You understand? Yeah, I’ve been modeling for 40+ years.

Right. And because of that, I think in terms of dollars and cents. And when I first started in this business, the thing that drew me to it was that I could make money, and that I could travel. And before I started working, I was a teacher. I taught 1st, 2nd, and 3rd grade in New York City.

Oh wow!

Yeah! I graduated from college, I’m walking down the New York City block. And this woman comes up to me, introduces herself. Her name is Eileen Ford. And she says to me, she asks me if I had a book. I said, “I have lots of books!” And she started laughing, and I’m thinking, “Why is she laughing?” Cause I think everything is funny. I don’t take offense at anybody, or anything, because I don’t know you, you don’t know me.

So she says to me, “I mean a book with pictures in it.” And I said to her, “Why would I have that? I’m a teacher. Actually, on my way to becoming a teacher. I’m graduating from college.” And she’s like, “What?” And she asks me, “Well, how much are you going to make as a teacher?” And my first job was going to be in a Catholic school, here in Manhattan, in New York City, and I was going to $227 every two weeks. I was proud! And she said, “What? You could make that as a model, every 15 minutes.”

And all I could think of was, “Okay, whatever. I just graduated from college, and this woman is telling me this. But this is not important to me.” And so you know, I took her phone number, I took her card, blah blah blah. And I started my teaching career. And I’m teaching in this school, and I have no money. None. And I’m living in Manhattan, in a little matchbox apartment. And I’m walking from 98th Street to 25th Street, every day, back and forth. No money, going to my mom’s house to get food to put in the refrigerator. And since I’m working in a Catholic school, I don’t really have to have a lot of clothing.

So here I am, doing this. And then I’m like, “Lord, is this what I’m supposed to do the rest of my life?” And all I could remember is, I think God is saying, “Call Eileen.” I look for the card, I called her up, she sets up an appointment. I go and I sit and I talk with her. And she’s talking… And you know Charlie Brown, when somebody is talking, and it’s like, “Wah-wah-wah-wah-wah”? And that’s what it was! I’m sitting there, and this woman is talking about people taking pictures of you, and you’re gonna get paid for it. And it sounded ludicrous! And when she said, “You can travel, see the world, and make money.” I said, “Okay, sign me up!”

I always wanted to travel. I grew up in a family with five brothers, a sister, a grandmother, and a mother. And we lived in a house. We didn’t have a car. We were not on food stamps, but we did not have a car. We didn’t drink sodas. There was no luxury items. Growing up, I would go home, straight from school. So I think that’s the reason that I didn’t know what a model was, because I didn’t sit with friends, looking through magazines.

Right.

I didn’t know that the people in those magazines, that was a job. I thought they were just good-looking people.

(Laughs) Wow.

Yeah! So when she told me that, I said, “Okay, sign me up.” I started working as a model. I shot Madmoiselle and Glamour magazine, and it all seemed very nice… It took forever to get my first job. And I’m saying to myself, okay, I’m in this business. Right, cause it’s a business. And I’m already like twenty-four years old, so I’m not stupid. I graduated from college. But I wanted to live some place… Originally I’m from Tampa, Florida. And I wanted to live some place where there was sky, and there’s a beach. So I said to her, I don’t feel comfortable going on all these appointments, going in these big buildings, walking around like a mole in a maze… I need the sky, I need the sun, I need the beach. She’s looking at me like I’m crazy. And I said, “Is there any place else I can go?” And she’s like, “You can go to Florida, or you can go to California.”

Well since my family is from Florida… My parents are Cuban. And Cuban people are very strict. You don’t go here, you don’t do this, you don’t do that. And I said, no! I want to live my life! I’ll go to Los Angeles! So here I am… I go to Los Angeles. I’m fairly new in this business. I don’t know anything about it. All I knew is that I’m gonna live life on my own terms. I’m a grown-up, right. So I go to L.A. and I live there, and I love it. I lived there seven years. Should I keep talking?

Mhm!

Cause this is almost kinda like my story.

Yeah, you’re definitely already answering some of my questions, so please keep going!

So here I am, in L.A. It’s wonderful. I go on casting… I meet the most incredible photographers, and make-up and hair people. I don’t have a car. I don’t know you have to have a car in L.A. back in… It was the early 80’s. I don’t know anything! All I know is that I will not be able to work if I don’t have a car. But how do you get a car if you don’t have money? And because I was raised very… How do you say, very humbly. But no guilt, no shame. Nothing. Knowing that my mother and grandmother did their best to put food on the table. So how am I gonna make money?

And I would meet people, you know. And I met this woman, and she was on her way to a beauty salon. So I asked the owner if I could work there. And he’s like, “Well, do you do hair?” And I said, “No. Is there anything else I could do?” And he said, “Well, you could sweep the hair up off the floor.” And I’m thinking, “Okay! I need money.” And I think most people, because of pride, because of shame… Because of already having worked for Glamour magazine, and Essence magazine, and Madmoiselle, I should think more highly of myself, which I don’t. I had to be humble.

So I swept up hair for a whole year. I graduated to be shampoo girl. (Laughs) In L.A. And then I get a little raggedy car. And I start to go to visit my agent. And they start sending me on appointments, and castings, and all of this stuff. And I started working there. And that’s where I really learned how to be a model.

And because of all the wonderful people that I met, some of the photographers… My pictures would be in my books, and when they would go to Europe, people would see the pictures, and that’s how I got a chance to go to Europe. That’s another story. And I lived there for twelve years. The first year I was living in L.A. and they would send for me to do a job in Florence, with a really famous photographer. His name was Aldo Fallai. And I would work with him.

And I said to myself, “The next time the send me to Florence, I’m staying!” Because it’s my life, right? I don’t know how this modeling business really works, where you’re supposed to just do what they tell you. So I stayed there for a year, I learned to speak Italian, and I was studying art. And my agent calls me, she’s like, “What are you doing??” I said, “I’m learning Italian, I’m studying art—” She’s like, “You’re a model!! What? No! If you’re gonna stay in Italy, you have to go to Milan!” And I’m thinking, “Milan? What is Milan?”

So I leave… (Laughs) This is like, hysterical! I go to Milan, and I’m thinking, “Okay, I have no idea… But at least I speak Italian! I have no idea what these people want from me.” Because it’s not as if it was like, my biggest dream to be a model, you know? It was a means to an end as far as I was concerned. So now I’m in Milan, and I go, and they send me to see Giorgio Armani, and he says, “Walk.” And I’m like, “What is he saying…?” He doesn’t speak English, he’s saying, walk. What is that?

So I get up, and just walk across the floor, like whatever, you know. He sits down. He calls my agent, and he says to my agent, “Is she retarded?”

Oh!

And my agent says to me, “Coco, what is wrong?” “I don’t know what he wants.” “He wants you to walk.” “I don’t know how, what walk??” “All black girls know how to walk!” And I was thinking, “I am in trouble!” He says, “Okay, act like you have on your mother’s high heels. You have a purse, and you have a scarf.” And I’m thinking, “He doesn’t know how old I am. He probably thinks I’m eighteen.” So I stand up, I go up on my toes, I throw the scarf—the fake scarf—and I have the purse. And I walk like I’m a little girl, looking in the mirror.

Well, Armani is laughing. My agent just told me that it’s three shows. $15,000 a show. I don’t care if Armani is laughing. I want the money.

Yeah.

Like Eileen said, I could help my family. So I got the shows. That first season in Milan, I did fifteen shows.

Wow!

Not knowing how to walk at all. The only thing that saved me was the fact that they didn’t tape the shows. There was no monitor backstage, where you could see that I was a total wreck. And it was really crazy! And at the end of the show, this photographer comes up to me—this Italian photographer. And he says, “Who are you?” And I’m looking, and kinda laughing to myself, and I say, “I’m Coco Mitchell!” He says, “You’re horrible!” All I could think of, is that he’s right! I am! He’s like, “Are you going to Paris?” I say, “Yes!” He says, “Don’t go.” So I’m like, “But I want to go.” He’s like, “Okay. Here’s my card.” Here’s another card someone hands me out of nowhere. That’s why I believe in God, cause it’s all providence.

“Call me when you get there.” In the 80’s, the shows were all elevated. The runway was higher than the people in the audience. And the photographers at the end of the runway were in what they call the “pit”. Well, that season, I was in the pit with this photographer—all stinky, sweaty photographers—and he’s showing me… I have a bird’s eye view of how it really looks. I could see the girls coming from back stage, walking, and I’m thinking, “That’s how they walk!? Wow!”

So he’s just like, “Take it in. Look. Study this. You should be doing these shows, but you can’t walk like this forever. Somebody’s gonna find out.” So what I did was I kinda taught myself. The next season, I went back to Milan, I worked in Milan. I worked in Milan, and then I worked in Paris, and then I decided, “I’m going to live here.” And that’s what I did. I worked for Yves Saint Laurent, Christian Dior, Givenchy, Versace, Armani… Anybody that you could think of, I’ve worked for.

Wow.

Only because, I had no shame. I did not take offense. I don’t know you, you don’t know me. And in this business, you have to have so much courage, because the way that people will treat you… Is horrible. You have to decide what you… I mean, I decide what I want to do, and how I want to be treated. And if someone is not nice, I will not work for them. I don’t care. You know?

Yeah.

And it all has to do with—for me—just taking my own stance. To this day, forty plus years later, I’m still working. It’s no longer a career, it’s now a job. And now that I have this job, what do I do with this job? Why am I still doing this, Lord? And the reason is, I have to be in the room. I have to be in the room. I have to… Not even to just share my story, being the first black woman in Sports Illustrated—1986.

Wow!

Being one of the first black women to do a campaign for Revlon, which was called Polished Ambers, the first black line of cosmetics. Not to share so much those things that I’ve done, but to share the fact that, if you want to do something—I believe this—then you have to stick with it, you have to be persistent, and you have to always be training and teaching yourself, if you want to stay in the game.

And I want to be in the game, like, “Put me in, coach! I’m ready.” But you can’t be ready if you don’t train. And so I still watch all the shows online. I still look at all the magazines. I still look at everything. Because when the door opens, I want to be able to walk through the door, and ask for the amount of money that I want.

Yeah.

And that kind of is my story. That’s really who I am, and that’s the way that I was raised, to not really give other people the power. Cause you don’t have power over me, you know? Growing up, we were not religious. But there’s no way that my mother and grandmother could do what they did without giving God the credit. And that’s the way that I grew up, always knowing that He is in charge, no matter how it looks, good or bad. And it all depends on how I react, you know. That’s always been who I am.

So… Do you have any questions? (Laughs)

Yeah, that was amazing! Thank you so much. I feel like I learned so much just from all of that.

Thank you, thank you, yeah… That’s been my life. It’s been an amazing journey, you know. Even talking to you. If I didn’t do this job, how would you even want to call me and find out who I am? And then talking with you, maybe it’ll encourage some other person.

Yeah!

Not a worn and withered person, but you know, just everybody! What we learn in our life is not just for our demographic—it’s for everybody! It’s to uplift and encourage, and also… Like I said, I could be very direct, but just learning how to approach people and get your point across without chopping off someone’s head. (Laughs) You know, that kind of thing. That’s what I had to learn, just how to… It’s like, navigating through life. How do you get what you want, without being offensive, or being offended.

Mm… Oh wow, yeah!

And that’s always my goal. Every morning when I leave. When I walk out my door, first thing I say is, “Why am I leaving my house? What is the reason? Am I going to be triggered by some crazy person on the streets of New York City?” It’s hard out here! (Laughs)

Yeah.

Yeah, so… You know. It’s armor. It’s my armor, that’s what I put on. I put on the armor of “Let’s get it done. What is the reason? What’s the purpose? Why show up?”

Mm, mhm.

Why am I sitting here? Why? What?? You know… And the other thing that I want to share with you… You know, all of this inclusivity, and diversity. I hate these words!

Yeah?

It’s like… Why? Stop talking about it, and be about it! Just do it! These things should have been happening forever.

Right.

But now, because people got killed… George Floyd. All of these people, things are online now. And you see people being murdered. And now, it’s time to do something about it. Which should have been happening before, you know? It’s really hard to hear, you know, these “inclusivity” and “diversity”… But inclusivity and diversity without the proper amount paid to you. That’s what I don’t like. I don’t like the fact that companies have to have black people, Asian people, brown people. And now you don’t pay top dollar, you just get someone off the street, and you pay them pennies, and then you think you’re gonna pay me pennies! No!

And that’s my stance on the whole thing. I think that, okay, if you don’t have the experience, then you take a dollar. But if you want someone with experience, with this whole inclusivity, diversity, body positivity, all of that, you have to pay! And this is one of my… You know, carrying that flag! Yes! Worn and withered, but not dead!

(Laughs)

You know, I did a job for Estée Lauder, right after the lockdown. And I’m on set, and I have no makeup on. I have really good skin, thank God. And the girl standing next to me has on a beautiful blouse. I have on a camisole. And the girl standing next to me is maybe twenty-five, Asian, and she has a beautiful blouse on. She has on glamorous makeup. Her hair looks fabulous. And then the woman standing next to her, maybe forty years old, and she has on a beautiful blouse, fabulous makeup, gorgeous hair, and I look like I’m going to do the laundry! What is that saying to women of a certain age?? So I walk off the set, I’m standing behind them, praying like, “Lord, I have to say something.” Because I don’t feel comfortable. Now I could’ve just did what they want me to do, take the money, and go home…

And I want to know why! I want to know why. Because I go to events. I go to the ballet, I go to the opera. I go out to dinner. I wear makeup. I buy clothing! And you have me looking… What does this mean? What does this say? So I’m like, “Lord, how do I say this?” And they’re like “Coco! Oh she’s over there.” So I go back on set. And this is when all of the big TV screens, with all the faces, were right there on set. Cause you know, it’s the lockdown, covid, blah blah blah.

So I’m like okay. I walk off the set again, I walk over to the big screens, and I say… I’m very dramatic. And when I’m passionate about something, it’s like, “I have to something to say!” And I said, “I have to say this. I don’t understand what you’re trying to say.” And I said, “My people are not going to be happy. And I’m not talking about black people. I’m talking about women of a certain age. What are you saying to us? Are you telling me that I don’t buy Estée Lauder makeup? That I don’t wear beautiful clothing? That I don’t go out? I just… Stay home, and… Do what?” And then I just walked away from the screen and got back on the set. They started screaming, “Take Coco off the set! Put makeup on her! Give her something else to put on!” So I’m like, “Okay, thank you, Lord.” Cause they could’ve said, “Whatever, girl. Whatever, lady! This is what we’re doing.”

Yeah, wow!

So they put these clothes on me, they glammed me up, right. I still get paid for the usage of this image that’s being used. Friends send me from London, Paris, Tokyo, Hong Kong, on the Estée Lauder counters—that image of me and those two other women. Now if I didn’t speak up… I mean… I have to speak up. I could’ve lost the job forever. But that’s the chance you take!

I mean, you have to be… Everyone will not be able to do it. And I think I was chosen to do this job. Cause I didn’t ask for it! I was chosen on the streets of New York. I was chosen to do this job, and to stay in it, to speak up, for people who are afraid to speak up. Otherwise it’ll be a Me Too situation all over, we’re just going along, to keep our jobs… You know? I have to pay the rent, too. Thank God I learned how to save money. But everyone is not going to speak up. So if I feel I can, I’ll speak for you.

Yeah, that’s beautiful.

And I think that happens because the way that I was raised, and watching my mother, and raising money… She belonged to all these different organizations, getting senators and congressmen elected into the government—black senators and black congressmen, when we weren’t there! So I feel like, I have to pay homage to my mother for standing up.

Yeah.

Yeah, so that’s really who I am. It’s all beautiful, it’s all very glamorous, and sometimes it’s not. It’s hard work! But all of that aside, I’m just a normal person who got chosen to do a beautiful thing, and who’s allowed to still say how she feels, and take the consequences, you know?

Yeah.

I was doing a job for L.L.Bean. And I work for them all the time, and all of a sudden… I walk in, and the clothes… It’s like, I don’t know how many pieces… It had to be a hundred and fifty pieces of things that I’m supposed to wear. And I’m thinking, “I’ve worked for them before. I’ve never worn more than twenty.”

Wow…

And I’m thinking, something is wrong here. No one says anything… And I have a lot of energy, for my age—which I’m not telling you! (Laughs) So here I am, I’m trying my best. But I’m thinking, this is not right! So I come from behind the little makeshift fitting room, dressing room. And I said, “Okay, slavery is over. I have called my Uber. And I’m out of here.” Everyone’s looking at me like I was crazy. I get to the hotel, my agent calls me, “You said—you were talking about slavery!?” I said, “Okay, wait a minute! I’m a black woman, and I can talk about slavery.” They had almost a hundred… You know, L.L.Bean. Shoes, socks, pants, jacket, sweater, blouse, hat… What?? And she’s like, “Well, Coco, you just walked off! Why didn’t you call me?” I said, “Because I was mad at you. Because you sent me there. They didn’t tell you?” She’s like, “Oh, I didn’t know! But they’ll never use you again!” I said, “I will never work for them again! You don’t get it!” And she’s like, “But Coco, sometimes the girls do it because they have to pay their phone bill.” I said, “Jenny, when I was in my twenties, one hand was the phone bill, the other hand was, do I buy Louboutin, or Manolo Blahnik shoes or pay the phone bill? I would buy the shoes.” I said, “I am no longer that age. I don’t have to worry about paying my phone bill. So you give those jobs to those girls. And don’t ever send me to any place like that again.”

But, because I’ve worked for this company before, I was blind-sided. I DMed the art director, the man in charge. I said, “Greg, what was that?????” And I put ten question marks, exclamation. I put #YouPlayedMe #ImNotHappy. He DMs me back, he’s like, “Coco, is this message for me?” And I’m like, yes. Now I can tell him what happened. Because nobody ever asked me what happened! My agent’s not speaking up for me. They only care to keep the client. So if they can fill my spot with another girl, they don’t care! That’s the whole thing about this business. It’s not personal. They don’t care about you!

Right.

So if you think they do, you’re in trouble! So I told him everything. He apologized. He said, “I am so sorry. If we did anything, you should have been booked for two days.” He said, “But that was called e-commerce.” I said, “Don’t even mention that word to me.” He’s like, “We will never book you for that again. We would love to continue to work with you. I am so sorry!” Do you know I just came back from Colorado, shooting with them?

Okay.

Now if I didn’t speak up, everything would have been… The woman is crazy. She’s ungrateful. Whatever! I don’t know what they might be thinking. But I had to set the record straight. I’m saying all of these things, these are examples of taking a chance and speaking up!

Yeah.

And all the young models that I know, now when they go to L.L.Bean, they know that that might be waiting for them, so they have to let their agents know. They can use my name, I don’t care! “Coco Mitchell said…” (Laughs) So… I kept my client, I kept my dignity, and I’m working for them this coming week in New York. But if I didn’t say anything, it would’ve just like, “Oh well, another client…”

Yeah, dang…

Yeah, that’s… I don’t know. I think that’s why I’m in the room. Even if they had stopped working with me, at least I said my piece. And at least they could think about us models as human beings, not just something to use. And you know, after covid, everything is sort of digital. The advertisers don’t want to pay, the retailers don’t want to pay. Everyone wants to make a dollar, and they want to spend a dime doing it. And it’s not fair!

Yeah.

So that’s me griping. (Laughs)

No, I love it! That’s so inspiring.

Thank you. I want to be inspiring. I don’t want to come across as bitter, because I’m not. I’m not bitter about anything. My whole life has been just so amazing. And to continue doing this job that I love, I’m like, “Why am I still doing it?” I do it because what other job can you have where you don’t see the same people every day? You always meet someone new. You always have a chance to learn from someone and leave something with them, you know? It’s amazing! It’s amazing. It’s a wonderful job. Sometimes it’s not so wonderful, but at the same time, that’s what you signed up for!

Wow… Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing all of that.

You’re welcome!

I guess a little bit lighter, outside of your job, what are some hobbies or other interests that you have?

Hobbies… Well, you know, I love the ocean.

Yeah!

I love the beach! I love the fact that I live near two rivers: the East River, and the Hudson River. And on the Hudson River you can do what they call paddle boarding. You can kayak. You can join different clubs. I’ve kayaked from New York to New Jersey, across the Hudson River, which is a very strong current. (Laughs)

Dang!!

That was crazy! But you know, you have to train. And I used to run marathons, but not anymore. I wish I had started that earlier. Because I would have run marathons around the world. You know, go to Spain and do a marathon. But the New York marathon is pretty major. It’s long…

26.2 miles—I think that’s a marathon!

Yeah, I think so. And I did three of them!

Oh wow! Oh my gosh.

Yeah, each one was to raise money for different organizations. So that’s why I ran. And it wasn’t running to win. It was running to be a part of… A marathon is like an amazing, living, breathing organism, where you feel… You know, you’re training to do this thing. I’m not an athlete like that. But you feel… The support that you get from all of the people that you meet. And you run around Central Park, and you meet different people, and there’s all these different clubs of… You know, encouragers! It’s amazing!

So my main hobbies are walking all around New York City. That’s what I’ve been doing since 8 o’clock this morning. I just walk the neighborhood. I just wanted to see how it looked without all the people. And, you know, that’s really what I do. And being around my family. That’s kind of a hobby in itself.

And your family—does that include like, your siblings, or do you have children, or cousins?

I don’t have children. And I think you know, because I’ve just traveled for the last I think thirty-five years of my life…

Yeah, wow!

This is the first time, with covid, I’ve nested! I literally live in my apartment. I literally have furniture. I bought a Swedish bed that cost so much money… And yeah! I live here. I live here… But you don’t know how hard it is… I keep saying, “Am I supposed to be here? I would really rather be in Paris…” You know, I feel the itch!

I have siblings—my sister. All my siblings live in Florida. I have nieces and nephew, who are all very creative people. One of my nieces, she’s a stunt woman!

Whoa!

Yeah! She was in Black Panther!

Oh, cool!

She was one of the women with the bald head, the warriors. And she also did the stunts for Viola Davis, woman king.

Amazing.

She’s doing a movie right now—I forget what it is. They’re shooting it in New Jersey, or some place. And she’s done lots of TV stuff… And I have a nephew, he’s a singer. And one of my nieces, she’s a tattoo artist. She lives in Colombia. She travels all over the world, doing tattooing. And she’s been in all these tattoo TV shows, and all of that kind of crazy stuff. And they all say, “It’s because of you!! You encourage that we do these things!” And I’m like, “Thank you! Wow!” I didn’t realize I was such an inspiration.

Yeah! I could see that.

Yeah. You know, when you leave your own country, and you go and you forge a place for yourself in a land that you’ve never been to. You don’t speak the language… And people don’t really ask you, “How did you get around?” Because you really… The agency just gives you a list, and you have to go! Well, how do you go? And people don’t really ask, “How did you do that? How did you do it?” You just have to do it. You get together with other girls who are just as scared as you are, and a lot younger… Half of them were half my age. And you know, you just sit down, and you map it out. And you all go together. It’s been fun! My mother traveled with me, and stayed with me many months. It’s been great.

So no, never married, never had kids… I’ve been engaged! A couple of times… But I am such a… I don’t know what it is. People talk about signs and stuff. I’m Aquarius, so I don’t really see things the way a lot of people see things. I think, really, outside of the box. I don’t let a lot of things worry me. And I’m always just kind of positive, and upbeat.

So… I think, even all of the boyfriends I’ve had, and even the fiancées. The problem has always been, “What are you talking about?” And not being understood… So I’m like, I don’t know if I could live like that. I can’t acquiesce—my character is too strong. Yeah.

So… That’s it. That’s really who I am.

Yeah… Wow. I guess just a couple more questions. How do you define success?

How do I define success? Success… I think, for me, success is not about how much money… I think I kinda said this earlier. It’s not about how much money you made, but it’s the impact you made on the people that you were around when you were making that money. That’s success to me. I mean, anybody in this fashion business that you might know by name, I know personally. And each one knows that when I’m in the room, you cannot be rude, you can’t be judgmental, you can’t put people down. You can’t talk to a makeup artist or hairdresser any which way you want. No! And that’s success to me. That impact that I make on your life. That’s what success is.

And, at the same time, you know, it’s getting all those jobs. Cause when I go out for a job, I want the job. I want it. And that’s success—getting it. Knowing that you deserve it, too. I deserve this! I didn’t just say, “I want it” and not work hard for it. So I think that’s what success is.

Yeah, amazing.

Putting your nose to the grindstone and doing the hard work—behind the scenes. And then reaping the success from that. Okay.

Yeah! Thank you. And one last thing… What are you currently looking forward to?

Wow… I ask myself that every day. Every day! What is next? What is next! I mean, we see that the way the world is moving, right? I mean, as far as… I have a very close friend, and he does the Amazon marketplace, and he does all of this stuff. And he’s already taught me how to box… You know, helping him, boxing, and tagging, and labeling. And that’s part of the entrepreneurial part of this world that we live in now. It’s just a matter of… Do I want to do that?

I think I still want to travel the world, see new things, and just keep it moving, until I can’t walk anymore.

Ah, I love that!

That’s what I want! I just want to live my life the way I want to live it. And I don’t know where that’s going to take me. I don’t know what that is. But I know that just… Every day, you know. If you keep your eyes open… If I keep my eyes open, it’s always happened that somewhere down the line, the trajectory always turns. It’s like a river. It always leads me someplace else. And I’m looking for that turn that’s about to happen. And that’s the answer to that question. I have no idea! None.

But at the same time, I’m free! I don’t have kids, I don’t have a husband. I don’t have anything tying me to anything! Unlike a lot of people, I’m just grateful for the fact that I do what I want, when I want, how I want, as long as I want. And when I don’t want to do it, I don’t do it!

Right, yeah.

And that’s… I have no idea. Answer question: I don’t know! (Laughs)

Yeah! Amazing. Wow, do you have any final thoughts? I think you pretty much answered all of my questions, just through telling your story.

I just want to thank you for having me. Thank you for reaching out. And thank you for understanding that everyone ages. And this is one of the things I was on set doing… I do a lot of beauty shoots. You see a lot of young women sitting on their computers. Because when you’re shooting, everything is almost finished before they even leave the situation that day. It’s already in the can. It’s already done.

So I always want to say now, and I thank you for this, is that they have to know. Young women have to know that eventually they are going to get older. What are you doing now to prepare the world for you getting older?

Hm…

Because if we just sit on it… It’s like that Estée Lauder job. You are going to tell me that now, this is what I do? This is who I am? I don’t do anything. I’m just… Worn. Useless. Like I just did a job for Macy’s. And they had me in these clothes… I mean, I’ve worn the best clothes in the world, by the best designers in the world. And they had me in this… I’m telling you, I’m not complaining, but I couldn’t understand it.

A top, a sweater, and some pants. None of it looked like it went together! And I said, “I’m really having a hard time. Who is this woman?” Cause how can I do the job if I don’t know who I am?

Yeah.

They said, “Oh, well, she’s retired. And she’s gardening.” And I’m thinking, “Okay, that’s gonna stretch me a lot, because I’m not retired. And I don’t garden.” But that’s who they’re saying that we are. How old are you? Can you say?

Yeah, I’m actually 31.

So you’re young! I love you! I’m talking to YOU! You have to set the stage. By the time you’re my age… I am… (does math) years older than you. Okay? So… Do the math. By the time you’re my age, the world should look differently for you!

I mean, I sure hope so.

No, you’re doing the work! Keep doing the work. Just keep doing the work! Women… We can do anything! We can last longer than… We can live to be one-hundred-twenty years old! Still doing stuff! But if we allow them to retire us… Then that’s it. You know, all those women that forged the way for you, and me? They will not be happy… The right to vote! You know how hard that was to get? I’m not talking about for black people, I’m talking about for women, back in the day!

I mean, I don’t! I cannot even fathom…

But they did that, so that you can make sure that all of those rights are not taken away. You know, the right to be alive? You’re gonna tell me that I’m retired? And I am shooting this thing to tell women that… This is all that’s left? But I told them, “You owe me one! I want the beautiful clothes next time!”

Yeah! I love that!

You know, so that’s the whole thing. Keep going, girl. I’m proud of you.

Thank you.

I’m proud of you. And I thank you for having me, and giving me the chance to tell my story, and just… Keep uplifting everybody. Not just women, but just… Everybody. Everyone. Okay?

Yeah. So where can people find you? I know your social media is @cocomitchell3?

Yes.

Any other websites or links you want me to leave in the episode?

Not really… No. That’s enough. I put a lot of stuff on Instagram. Only because I realized at one point… I didn’t know how important it was, until I would do a job, and I’d see a picture hanging up. And I’m like, “Where’d you get that picture?” They said, “From Instagram.” And I’m like, “Oh, wow! This is an important platform!” So Instagram is good enough.

Cool. All right, well thank you so much! I’m looking forward to transcribing this!

I’ll talk with you soon! Just let me know how everything works. Just send me a text every now and then, “Coco, hi!”

Yeah, sounds good.

Yeah, so every now and then, just shoot me a text, “Hey Coco, when are you coming to New Orleans?”

Yeah, that’s where I am!

Okay, I’ll talk to you soon!

Okay, thank you! Bye!

Thank you! Bye!

Season 4 - Episode 4 - Interview with Rosie Kuhn

Welcome to the Wise Not Withered podcast! This is Season 4, Episode 4. This month’s guest is Dr. Rosie Kuhn. She is the founder of The Paradigm Shifts Coaching Group, a boutique coaching company which focuses on personal and spiritual development in oneself, in relationships, and in the workplace. She is considered a preeminent thought leader in the field of transformation. She is the author of many books, including Aging Like a Guru - Who Me, and I’ve Arrived! Well, Sort Of… Her books can be found on Amazon. She has been training individuals to become Transformational Coaches since 2001. If you are interested in speaking to Dr. Rosie about coaching or training with her, you can email her at rosie@theparadigmshifts.com. She has a few of her own Podcasts, including Spiritual Immersion - Taking the Plunge, and Aging Like a Guru - Who Me? She can also be found on YouTube - Dr. Rosie Kuhn, and her website is theparadigmshifts.com.

 

Full transcription can be found on https://wisenotwithered.com/2023/07/01/season-4-episode-4-interview-with-rosie-kuhn/

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The Inward Bound Bootcamp for Self-Transformation can be found at www.suivera.org/b7-inward-bound-bootcamp.